NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

[nyjetsfan14]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Hi Matt,

First and foremost, I feel the need to once again emphasize that my posts in this thread have nothing to do with MEARS grading system or the Jim Brown jersey. That issue continues to be brought up in the responses to my posts. I have no comment or opinion on the Jim Brown jersey as clearly stated in my last post as I have never seen this jersey in person or held it in my hands. I also have never given the MEARS grading system much thought as I simply do not depend on such when making purchase decision.

Let me also repeat a statement from my last post that seems to have been overlooked - "I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors. All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn."

The key words here are "in general". I have no doubt that the Jets jerseys from the 1960s that you have seen and owned show great use and repairs. And others in the hobby may have had similar experiences in what they collect. But while you are mainly a Jets collector and expert, Troy is seeing a wide variety of jerseys from virtually every team and league. He has a much wider sampling to observe than the average collector.

As for me, I have had thousands of jerseys go through my hands over the years simply by the virtue of being in the hobby for a very long time. I have also been fortunate to view major inventories of other dealers and several large personal collections. Being a dealer myself, I have had access to a lot more jerseys and a wider variety than the average collector. For example, I have bought out nearly an entire league (WLAF) consisting of over 500 jerseys, and have made team bulk buys through the years with the largest being close to 800 jerseys. This has given me the opportunity to see a lot of jerseys.

This doesn't make me or Troy any smarter than anyone else, it simply means that we have seen and studied a whole lot of stuff and have a fairly good idea of how many repaired jerseys we've seen in a very large sampling. I am certainly not discounting you or anyone else's experiences as we all have to go on what we've seen.

Regardless of all of that, after reading your post, I thought that the 90% figure might be a bit ambitious. So, I went downstairs and wandered through my personal collection and notes. I tried to come up with a variety of items. Here is what I found:

32 various NFL durene jerseys, 19 had no repairs - 59%

50 mesh Atlanta Falcons jerseys (1973 to 1999), 40 had no repairs - 80%

33 WFL jerseys (1974 & '75), 30 had no repairs - 91%

15 various NFL jerseys (players from UAB), 13 had no repairs - 87%

22 UAB jerseys (players who went on to the NFL), 20 had no repairs - 91%

In the 1990s, I purchased 521 jerseys directly from the WLAF from the league's first two seasons (1991 & '92). I made handwritten notes on each of the jerseys. In looking at those notes, 500 of the jerseys had no repairs - 96%

In my overall sampling of 673 jerseys, 91.5% did not have team repairs. It's not that these 673 sampled jerseys don't show nice use (some have holes, rips, runs, etc.), it's simply a matter that most do not have actual repairs.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

To start off Mark I appreciate your experiences and knowledge combined with your willingness to share. As it pertains to your figures we can throw out everything but the first line as the rest isn't in the topic of discussion for this thread. So we'll go with your 59% (assuming they are from the era of our discussion). Then, as noted in my first post, it would behoove us to further break it down by position as of course kicker & QB jerseys are much less likely to exhibit repairs. Then we would have to eliminate players who never or rarely touched the field. I stand by my assessment that if we are looking at position players who actually played from the 50's and on into the 60's that 90+ percent of those jerseys not exhibiting team instituted repairs is just not even in the same area code as realistic. Again, that doesn't rule out a jersey as being legit but in a case where a player had a brutal style of play at a position where contact is constantly absorbed an A10 or perfect rating is absurd (I understand you are not making any statements on any particular piece). You can't possibly tell me that if you came across a Falcons Junior Coffey gamer that you would expect it to have no team instituted repairs or that you would feel as confident as you would with a Coffey jersey exhibiting team repairs? We can play numbers games all evening but it really comes down to a matter of common sense.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Hi Matt,

I read with interest your thread and have just one question for you. The question is, just how many Jets jerseys, from the era you stated have you personally owned and/or personally examined to substantiate the below statement?

With that being said, I was a bit taken aback when you agreed with the authenticator that 90 plus percent of legitimate vintage game worn AFL or NFL jerseys will demonstrate no team instituted repairs. This is absolutely positively not the case with New York Jets jerseys from the AFL or early merger era. Even most common Jets player jerseys from that particular era more often than not (that could be anywhere from 51% to 49% and up) will exhibit use to include team repairs (of course obviously a players position, type of playing style, and amount of playing time will have a dynamic impact on percentages).

Jim

[G1X]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Hi Matt,

First and foremost, I feel the need to once again emphasize that my posts in this thread have nothing to do with MEARS grading system or the Jim Brown jersey. That issue continues to be brought up in the responses to my posts. I have no comment or opinion on the Jim Brown jersey as clearly stated in my last post as I have never seen this jersey in person or held it in my hands. I also have never given the MEARS grading system much thought as I simply do not depend on such when making purchase decision.

Let me also repeat a statement from my last post that seems to have been overlooked - "I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors. All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn."

The key words here are "in general". I have no doubt that the Jets jerseys from the 1960s that you have seen and owned show great use and repairs. And others in the hobby may have had similar experiences in what they collect. But while you are mainly a Jets collector and expert, Troy is seeing a wide variety of jerseys from virtually every team and league. He has a much wider sampling to observe than the average collector.

As for me, I have had thousands of jerseys go through my hands over the years simply by the virtue of being in the hobby for a very long time. I have also been fortunate to view major inventories of other dealers and several large personal collections. Being a dealer myself, I have had access to a lot more jerseys and a wider variety than the average collector. For example, I have bought out nearly an entire league (WLAF) consisting of over 500 jerseys, and have made team bulk buys through the years with the largest being close to 800 jerseys. This has given me the opportunity to see a lot of jerseys.

This doesn't make me or Troy any smarter than anyone else, it simply means that we have seen and studied a whole lot of stuff and have a fairly good idea of how many repaired jerseys we've seen in a very large sampling. I am certainly not discounting you or anyone else's experiences as we all have to go on what we've seen.

Regardless of all of that, after reading your post, I thought that the 90% figure might be a bit ambitious. So, I went downstairs and wandered through my personal collection and notes. I tried to come up with a variety of items. Here is what I found:

32 various NFL durene jerseys, 19 had no repairs - 59%

50 mesh Atlanta Falcons jerseys (1973 to 1999), 40 had no repairs - 80%

33 WFL jerseys (1974 & '75), 30 had no repairs - 91%

15 various NFL jerseys (players from UAB), 13 had no repairs - 87%

22 UAB jerseys (players who went on to the NFL), 20 had no repairs - 91%

In the 1990s, I purchased 521 jerseys directly from the WLAF from the league's first two seasons (1991 & '92). I made handwritten notes on each of the jerseys. In looking at those notes, 500 of the jerseys had no repairs - 96%

In my overall sampling of 673 jerseys, 91.5% did not have team repairs. It's not that these 673 sampled jerseys don't show nice use (some have holes, rips, runs, etc.), it's simply a matter that most do not have actual repairs.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Joel,

I am not shouting at you. Can you explain RKGIBSON's example of the A* LT jersey?

Mark

Mark, I looked at the thread - Did MEARS respond to concerns? I can't find a copy of their A8 letter anywhere on the thread. What is the concern? Did they get addressed with MEARS? I see the jersey had a personal letter from Lou Lampson.

Someone didn't like the font, what did MEARS say when asked about it? What did Lou Lampson say?

How can I answer if the questions were never asked of MEARS or Lou Lampson? What does this jersey prove to the debate at hand?

[Moustache Gang]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Joel,

I am not shouting at you. Can you explain RKGIBSON's example of the A* LT jersey?

Mark

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

[quote=RKGIBSON;108193]Joel,
You want examples of A5, heres a A8 graded LT jersey that cannot be proven real. The photo match say 83 photos and 84 Topps card, which is not correct. This type font was never used by the Giants in this era. Explain.


http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...+taylor[/quote]

I am sorry, your shouting is too hard to read.

[RKGIBSON]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Joel,
You want examples of A5, heres a A8 graded LT jersey that cannot be proven real. The photo match say 83 photos and 84 Topps card, which is not correct. This type font was never used by the Giants in this era. Explain.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=12058&highlight=Lawrence+taylor

[RKGIBSON]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

First, I think the whole authentication field is a joke, a big rip off. The only impact any of them have had on this hobby is negative. I would think their mission is to deem a item real or not? I would like for them to admit they are not really interested is saying that a item is real or not, they are just interested in getting paid for every item that is submitted. A5 to me means that there is a 50/50 chance it is real. Its a score not a authentication. I would think that making your opinion something that is understandable and something that is not open to interpetation would be a goal if you really know what you are talking about. I would bet that most of their customers are dealers that are hoping to use their smoke and mirrors grading system to trick some unknowledgable person out of a few more bucks.

Joel, you seem to be the mouth piece for MEARS here. A couple questions;
How does any jersey that has a photo match not get the highest score? It is proven real, right?

How can any jersey that has no provenace, or photo match, get the highest score? Recieving the highest score should be reserved for a item that there is absolutely no doubt it is real, right?

I do not know any of the guys at MEARS. I would guess that each has a lot of knowledge on somethings and not much on others. Collectively they have a lot of knowledge. I would guess that to properly evaluate a Jim Brown jersey you would have had to have had one, that was known to be real, to compare to and proof that Brown wore this one, in order to render a opinion that this is perfect. It is true that general knowledge of Browns jerseys from this era could be obtained by looking at common player jerseys. I would think that if absolute accuracy was their goal in evaluating, potentially, one of the most significate jerseys in existance, the highest score would only be awarded if there was absolutely no doubt. If getting the most money out of a item was the goal, the scrutiny might be less.

Roger

[nyjetsfan14]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

lund6771,

My post was not intended to validate the Jim Brown jersey, but rather to point out a very educational piece of information about older football jerseys stated by Troy Kinunen that was buried in post #15. I have not seen the Jim Brown jersey in person or held it in my hands, so I have no comment about its authenticity. That was the purpose of my disclaimer at the end of the fourth paragraph in my previous post.

I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors.

All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

Greetings Mark, long time no chat. I hope this post finds you in good health and spirits. I trust you are enjoying a very successful Falcons season thus far.

I was leaning towards letting the well knowns air this one out but when I saw your post I decided to throw my hat in the ring as it is always a rewarding exchange when we interact regarding football collecting. While I understand most on this forum (and off) are unfamiliar with me, my Jets collection, and my experience/knowledge of Jets uniform traits I think you know a little bit about me. I personally authenticate all Jets pieces I purchase/trade for and put no stock in any third party authenticators and/or their documentation when it comes to Jets items (not saying that as a slight against any particular person rather I just prefer to do and trust my own research). If and when I have any doubts/questions about a Jets piece that I cannot answer with my extensive Jets library and resources I confer with a fellow Jets collector/friend who happens to be a respected member of this forum. I unfortunately have seen more misauthenticated (yes I am aware I may have just made up a word) Jets items for auction than I care to discuss.

With that being said, I was a bit taken aback when you agreed with the authenticator that 90 plus percent of legitimate vintage game worn AFL or NFL jerseys will demonstrate no team instituted repairs. This is absolutely positively not the case with New York Jets jerseys from the AFL or early merger era. Even most common Jets player jerseys from that particular era more often than not (that could be anywhere from 51% to 49% and up) will exhibit use to include team repairs (of course obviously a players position, type of playing style, and amount of playing time will have a dynamic impact on percentages). If someone offered me say a Matt Snell NY Jets AFL or early merger era game worn jersey that had no team repairs and tried to insinuate that it was in fact a perfect example of a Matt Snell jersey from said era, that would be a laughable scenario and an insult to my collecting knowledge. I would be further insulted if they tried to tell me good wear was shown via the crotch piece with evidence of numerous buttonings and unbuttonings. I am in no way saying that a jersey of such a player as Matt Snell displaying no team repairs would or could not have belonged to/been issued for/or used by Matt Snell nor am I saying that the crotch piece wear should not be taken into consideration but to give it a label of perfect example or A10 or whatever else someone might want to call it is just not correct in my mind. While undoubtedly there would be a percentage of jerseys from said era that might not exhibit team repairs (the approximate percentage could be debated I am sure and factors as mentioned above would come into play) I find it nearly impossible to fathom that 90 or more out of 100 jerseys of players who played significant time during that era would exhibit use without team repairs, to me that is irresponsible writing solely dedicated to selling a particular item.

When we talk about perfect examples or A10's it would only stand to reason that we expect the piece to be positively the premeire example of a jersey from that player. If we are talking about a perfect example of a Jan Stenereud game worn jersey that would more than likely be a jersey with no team instituted repairs but when we are talking about a Jim Brown game worn jersey, who was clearly one of the more physical runners to ever put on shoulder pads, I just don't feel a jersey of his without team repairs but with crotch piece wear would warrant a "perfect" label or A10. I think it was the grade awarded considering the above that really stirred the conflict of interset pot.

Before we annoint pieces with LOA's, grade numbers, worksheets, expert opinions, etc...

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=18550

Thanks for hearing me out Mark. All the best and enjoy the rest of the NFL season. Happy collecting to all and may everyone have a warm and safe Thanksgiving!

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Based on this reasoning, I guess if you don't like slavery, don't buy slaves.

No one is forcing you to.

Sour grapes!!!

i'm surprised joel was such a fervant obama supporter given that barack ran on a platform of "change". one would've thought the alpertian response to barack's constant promises of substantial change would've been to tell him if he doesn't like the way america currently is, he's not forced to live here.

don't like how the war was handled, obama? sour grapes! obama's just jealous of bush's amazing military strategery!

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Second: I like MEARS and I think they do a good job. BUT, what's with the different grades of authenticity? A jersey should be either authentic or not authentic. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you are not pregnant. That's it.

Jim

i've long thought that as well. from what i can tell, MEARS' intention wasn't to render a conclusive verdict per se but simply provide information for buyers to make their own minds up. i can understand that, however, in that case, why even bother with subjective interpretations/evaluations? simply sell the raw research itself and really let folks make up their minds. rather than have bushing say a bat matches factory records and sell that opinion, for example, sell the actual factory record itself and really let folks make up their minds.

at the end of the day, all buyers ultimately care about is whether a jersey was likely to have been game-worn or not likely. "L" or "NL". simple huh? they could still outline all of their reasoning behind either grade in the corresponding worksheets. i still have no idea what the differences are between an A6, A7, A8, A9. i've read through all of their documentation and from what i gather you can get points taken off for things like a missing button or a stain. for the love of pete, what does a missing button have to do with authenticity? is a jersey with a missing button less likely to have been game worn than a jersey with the button intact? what's the difference between an A1 and an A3? all i know is both have serious issues. who cares about varying degrees of serious issues if the final point is that the jersey is "unlikely to have been game worn"? does it matter that one jersey has an incorrect nob font, incorrect numbers, and missing patch and the other has all of those plus it's the wrong size, wrong customization, and wrong material? they're both garbage! garbage is garbage. what's the benefit in discerning and categorizing different shades of garbage? "hey guys i got an A3. the jersey's got serious issues but thank god it's not an A1 because then i'd really be in trouble". it puts a tremendous onus on buyers to read through all of the grade definitions and understand them, which is an arduous task in itself.

as well, the grading system has really opened up a can of worms for mears. by having such a variable scale, it gives the individual authenticator a lot of leeway to slide across the grades. maybe, for example, he doesn't see a large stain on the front and maybe an A9 becomes an A10. this problem would be entirely avoided with a "Likely" and "Not likely" grade. it's simply too easy and too subjective to slide across 10 different grades and that's where many of MEARS headaches have come from. folks arguing they should've gotten an A8 instead of an A7 for example. simply having 2 grades would really simplify the entire thing for everyone. they could still include all of the worksheets.

rudy.

[otismalibu]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Ok, so you don't like their system, so what is the big deal? Don't buy items they have authenticated.

Based on this reasoning, I guess if you don't like slavery, don't buy slaves.

No one is forcing you to.

Sour grapes!!!

[G1X]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

lund6771,

My post was not intended to validate the Jim Brown jersey, but rather to point out a very educational piece of information about older football jerseys stated by Troy Kinunen that was buried in post #15. I have not seen the Jim Brown jersey in person or held it in my hands, so I have no comment about its authenticity. That was the purpose of my disclaimer at the end of the fourth paragraph in my previous post.

I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors.

All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Good Morning Joel....

I don' want to wase my entire Saturday putting A5 examples up here....You've seen as many as I've seen over the years....how about Tom Brady's, Kobe Bryant, and Steelers jerseys?...go to E-bay, i'm sure there's a few Lebron James' on there....usually is

The A-5 is the biggest joke of all....if they would have gone with a pass/fail it wouldn't be as a big an issue to me...but the difference in $ between an A5 and an A10 is substantial

Ok, so you don't like their system, so what is the big deal? Don't buy items they have authenticated. Buy items authenticated by other authenticators.

You can pick and choose your arguments over the A5 grade, conceit facts are much more appealing than a blanket statement that you cannot back up without doing some homework.

[mvandor]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I'd like to make 2 statements:

First: I think Mark and Troy have it right. I believe it should be a combination of factors and not just whether or not a jersey has wear on it or not when trying to determine authenticity of a jersey. How can someone discount a jersey because it does NOT have a lot of wear? Who can say what the journey of any jersey, vintage or modern, was if they weren't in the locker-room? There could be a multitude of reasons why a jersey doesn't show wear - it could have been stolen, donated to charity, player superstitions, injury, player released or taken by a player or staff member and given away to friends. It could have been removed after one game, two games or a seasons worth of use.

Second: I like MEARS and I think they do a good job. BUT, what's with the different grades of authenticity? A jersey should be either authentic or not authentic. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you are not pregnant. That's it.

But that's just my opinion.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

That would actually drop them to the level of autograph authenticators. I think their grading system speaks to the LIKELIHOOD an item is legitimate. I assume obvious fakes get their "unable to authenticate", no?