NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I should add that if you feel a company would lie or otherwise materially embellish the authenticity claims because they own the item, that would be a reason not to trust their authenticity opinion about anything.

bushing? embellish items he owns? never!

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16205

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16211

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16207

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16206

http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1208396670/1968+Lew+Krausse+Oakland+A%92s+jersey+%28Lot+%23+1385%29+in+the+current+REA+Auction

anyway, i feel it's unfair to castigate all of mears simply from bushing's actions, especially given that he's already left. i like grob and miedema seems like a good fellow.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

frankly, i don't understand why mears (troy, dave. etc.) would even consider putting themselves in the of position of inviting these sort of debates (which often leave hints of doubt in their wake) simply because they insist on authenticating/grading their own items. nor do i understand why some want to pretend that this sort of practice, autheticating/grading one's own item, is perfectly benign and not frought with potential abuse.

as far as the robert edward "disclaimer" is concerned, imho it falls well short of full disclosure - it assumes that the general public understands the inner workings of mears, how the grading process is determined and who determines the final grade. mears, a sports memorabilia evaluation service and dealer, is the owner and seller of this jersey. they have determined the jersey's authenticity and have awarded it the highest grade available. information regarding mears can be found at mearsonline.com. that's closer to full disclosure imo.

but here's the thing - we're talking about items that fetch tens of thousands of dollars. the fact that mears ponied up to purchase such items alone speaks volumes given their expertise in the field. so why muddy the water? why not seek out a reputable third party authenticator to confirm what mears already knows. call it peer review. now you have a gem offered from the personal colection of one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the world (mears) independently authenticated by xyz. it looks and smells better - and in the long run would be well worth the relatively small layout for the thrid party evaluation imo.

moving on, i was very impressed with troy's detailed and thorough observations regarding the jersey's use. specifically, it strikes me that he's spot on regarding the term "tear away" and its apparent loose definition. i'm with him - i find it hard to beleve that halas, or any owner from that era, would invest in a stockpile of tear away jerseys that would need to be continually replaced throughout a season. further, i doubt the jim brown jersey fabric is consistent with the "true" tear away fabric used in the late 70s, early 80s - a shredded tony dorsett pitt jersey comes to mind.

before i forget, what's up with grading a jim brown gamer an a10? i'm sorry, but that's just laughable. i guess the ark of the covenant would grade out at an a10 as well? as if rare gems can't stand alone on their own painfully obvious merits. here's an idea: confine grading to cards and sigs, to bent corners and smears. but i guess that would mean leaving a few bucks on the table.

as far as the football helmets at mastro are concerned, i would say that at least 75% of them have been sold at auction within the last couple of years. i've only had a chance to take a quick look but i recoginized just about every one i saw, most are in my photo database - i'll post some thoughts as well as what they went for the last time they were auctioned when i get a chance.

to end, here's a shot of a jim brown jersey hanging in canton - there's another photo available that shows the same reinforced elbow stitching.




...

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Rudy, nice theories, but the facts speak for themselves:

If MEARS owns and writes a LOA on an item, they are standing behind it more than anyone else in the industry. Bid with confidence if an issue is found down the road they will still be there to stand behind the item.

You do not have to bid or buy an item with a MEARS LOA that originated from a member of the MEARS staff. That is your choice, but you do not have to go on a debate of how you find it unethical each and every time an item comes up on this forum. We all know you disagree with their policies, but most people find that MEARS has broken new ground for being honest up front so you can be assured their letters for their inventory is fully disclosed.

As similar to what Troy Kinunen stated in his post, how about auction houses that own their own items, authenticate them and sell them? You do not believe this happens with American Memorabilia, Historic Auctions, Grey Flannel and others? Maybe it doesn't, but I believe they all authenticate items in house, and if they own an item, have you ever seen them disclose such information?

MEARS has a policy to give full disclosure of any item they own and authenticate - A positive step in this industry. You do not have to buy anything they have authenticated, but you have to give them credit for honesty and integrity when no one else has stepped forward with such concepts to date.

Ok, don't give them credit, I'll do such for you.

[wjonesIII]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

scintillating to see someone with some genuine comments and questions.
who would authenticate items that belong to troy and/or bushing? perhaps dave grob. really i'm not sure but that's more of a logistical dilemma. i'm simply having an ideological discussion here. if lampson weren't lampson, then the two sides could swap authentications of their personal items back and forth. lou could have his done by MEARS and troy and dave could have theirs done by lou. of course, in reality, that's an abysmal idea solely because lou's "not very good at what he does". troy and dave could submit their items to nick coppola's crew over at GFC or doug allen's mystery band of merrymakers at mastro.

as for what REA should've done, in my opinion, quite simply say they won't run things where the authenticator and consigner are the same person. simple no? if dave bushing loves REA (and let's face it, who doesn't?) and wants to consign all of his items there, then he can simply not grade his items and have another authenticator do it. for his bats, he can get taube or mike specht to do it.

once again, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for actually sticking to the issues.

rudy.

Grey Flannel my ***. I know for a fact they were sent a Pujols jersey with a GFC letter they wrote, along with a MEARS "unable to authenticate" letter for the same jersey. The Pujols jersey clearly matches the GFC letter and is obviously the same jersey (other than the autograph signed after in GFC's possession). GFC says "it's not the same jersey" and stole the Grey Flannel letter they wrote, calling it their policy to take back such letters. Instead of taking responsibility and explaining why they disagree with MEARS opinion, they stole the letter! That tells me GFC has shady business practices. I would never consign to them, or have them grade any item. Why would Dave Bushing use those people to authenticate his stuff? For the record, it's a bunch of B.S. that GFC stole the letter that they wrote, and charged $ for.

[David]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I should add that if you feel a company would lie or otherwise materially embellish the authenticity claims because they own the item, that would be a reason not to trust their authenticity opinion about anything.

[David]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

As has been said, if a collector wants to dismiss/ignore all MEARS LOAs where they owned and/or consigned the item, that is his right. A collector isn't required to bid on or buy anything.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I assume that people who are against MEARS issuing an LOA for items they own/consign/market, are also against players or their marketing companies issuing LOAs for the player's game used or autographs. I fail to see much difference between the two.

if dave bushing wants to wear a jersey to play touch football in and then sell that jersey, i have no issue with him attesting to the fact that he personally wore it. dave knows for a fact that he wore it.

if dave wants to purchase a jersey and then authenticate it and determine the degree of authenticity, then i have an issue with it because, unlike his touch football jersey, it's no longer fact, it's simply an opinion. an opinion becomes biased when the person stands to profit from deciding one way or the other.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Rudy - I do not understand, you want MEARS not to write letters on their own items? Who else can authenticate them?

grey flannel. john taube. psa/dna. mike specht. GAI. and i'm not suggesting that MEARS, as a whole, not write letters on its items but rather that the specific individuals at MEARS who own a specific item not write letters on that item. if bushing has bought a jersey, he can have grob authenticate it. if grob has purchased a jersey, he can have bushing look at it. would it truly have been such an arduous hassle for dave and troy to have bought the jim brown jersey and given it to dave grob to authenticate? i've been very impressed with much of dave grob's research and i'm sure he could've done a fine job.

why would MEARS pay extra fees to authenticate items that they spent countless hours authenticating themselves?

because it removes the conflict of interest, that's why. does it cost more to be ethical? often yes. joel, when a public company issues its year-end financial statement, there is the requirement that a third-party accounting firm sign off on the results. the company's own in-house accountants can't sign off by themselves. why is that joel? is it because their own in-house accountants have an inherant bias by virtue of being employed by the entity with whom they're supposed to be objective? like i said, the rest of the civilized world has caught up to this issue and this hobby creaks along like it's 1802. someone came up with an auction model 20 yrs ago, inherantly ripe with potential for fraud and exploitation, and we're all still using it and saying "hey, if you don't like it, don't use it".

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I assume that people who are against MEARS issuing an LOA for items they own/consign/market, are also against players or their marketing companies issuing LOAs for the player's game used or autographs. I fail to see much difference between the two.

the two couldn't be more different. players/marketing companies don't authenticate jerseys. mears does. players/marketing companies are simply saying that "X jersey came from X player/team". mears examines jerseys beyond that point, often without any such provenance. mears is in the business of educated guesswork. when the miami dolphins take a jersey from jason taylor and sell it, they aren't guessing. the pro shop folks aren't even attempting to authenticate. they're just selling what comes off the field. they're not telling people to have faith in their knowledge of game-used items.

In the end, what matters is whether or not the item is authentic. If MEARS issues an LOA for an authentic garment, there's little to complain about.

many things in this hobby matter. conflicts of interest are one of them. however, don't take my word for it. MEARS has spent years railing against conflicts of interest.

david, for the most part, "authenticity" in this hobby requires faith. unless you've personally witnessed an item being used on the field and then put immediately into your own hands without ever taking your eyes off of it, there's a leap of faith required. these leaps are tested or questioned when the person saying it's authentic has an inherant bias in their testimony because they stand to personally profit from it. what is so difficult to understand why conflicts of interest are a bad thing? almost every major commercial endeavor has not only realized this but has formal mechanisms in place to prevent here. meanwhile, we're here in this hobby like a bunch of dinosaurs unable to even comprehend what it all means. i know i've said this a few times but truly i should keep my yap shut about this issue. it seems many have no issue with the consigner and the authenticator being the same person. i suppose i should be thankful these folks don't work in accounting, investment banking, or any other profession that demands a clear understanding of conflicts of interest.

"If MEARS issues an LOA for a fake garment, then there's something to complain about."

i understand what you're saying when you that all that matters is whether the is good or bad but it's substantially more complex and subtle than that. this hobby doesn't operate in such absolute shades. a jersey might be good or might be bad. who's going to tip the scales in favor of good? the person who stands to profit from it and whose opinion people rely on to be objective and unbiased?

rudy.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

A few observations:

Rudy - I do not understand, you want MEARS not to write letters on their own items? Who else can authenticate them? MeiGray, the only other 3rd party authenticator I personally trust, doesn't accept all items and even if they did, why would MEARS pay extra fees to authenticate items that they spent countless hours authenticating themselves?

MEARS has started a policy that is above and beyond what anyone asks for. Do not buy their stuff if you do not like their system. I offered to you a few years ago to start an authentication company with you. We all know you were not interested, as you wish to keep this a hobby for yourself. This is great, but no one else has steeped forward as an authenticator with full disclosure policies in this industry to date.

David Archibald - Nice to see you back in the William Jones III persona. Here is the problem with your concept. If Lou Lampson sent items in to MEARS to have authenticated for the purpose of consigning to any auction house other than Robert Edwards Auctions, MEARS would not be willing to authenticate the item per their Auction House Contract Policy.

Danny - Nice to see your post also. I am glad someone who understands my side of a debate posts it. I find too many people just don't like to get into the debate side of things but love to email, call or when they see me in person tell me how they love my posts and rants.

OM10 - A new grade for you and you only?

[otismalibu]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I assumed KJ24 had an issue with the grading (Mears) of one's own items.

I dunno.

All my collection items have been graded OM10. Just sayin'.

[David]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I assume that people who are against MEARS issuing an LOA for items they own/consign/market, are also against players or their marketing companies issuing LOAs for the player's game used or autographs. I fail to see much difference between the two.

In the end, what matters is whether or not the item is authentic. If MEARS issues an LOA for an authentic garment, there's little to complain about. If MEARS issues an LOA for a fake garment, then there's something to complain about. If MEARS gives LOAs to a lot of bad stuff, everyone will start dismissing their LOAs-- doesn't matter who owned what. If a collector wants to dismiss altogether the LOAs from MEARS, NFL teams or MLB players because they owned the items and profited directly from their sale, that is their right. However, most collectors will put stock in a Miami Dolphins LOA or Nolan Ryan hologram, even though the entity made significant profit from the sale. If Nolan Ryan starts affixing his hologram to baseballs signed by his neice, then collectors will soon question the legitimacy of his holograms.

[Danny899]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

danny

good to see you addressing the actual points as usual. i succumb to yours and joel alpert's analysis; it's true that my entire take on this issue is solely because i am "jealous of MEARS practice and amazing inventory".

i also concur that the reason joel's found so much resistance on this forum is because, as he's put it before, people just don't like to hear the truth. much like the reason we've had such a hard time in iraq is because those folks just hate freedom and fun. here's hoping you and joel continue on your truth-espousing mission. maybe one day we'll all see the light.

rudy.

I really don't see how Iraq has anything remotely to do with this topic or this forum for that matter. However maybe if you were less sarcastic and more humble in your writings, some might take you more seriously. Try to realize that members may not always agree with you, and if they don't, there's certainly no reason to become abrasive with them as you have above. It's unfortunate, because I really appreciated your large collection of Rickey Henderson photos in your library. I'm done here.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

If I were Lou Lampson, I would submit any item I owned to MEARS before consigning it, because Lou Lampson is not an auction house. he would be allowed to submit the items to MEARS. Then he wouldn't have to ever write a letter on his own jersey again. As far as MEARS goes, who do you want authenticating the items that Troy and Dave consign? Lelands? Mastro? Grey Flannel? The bidder? I am sure the buyer wants a COA. REA did let people know the facts. Do you want REA to write the LOA? Somebody has to write it. Do you just want GUU to authenticate everything. I understand that you don't want the consignor writing the LOA. Many would agree. Again, it was clearly stated by REA though, so what should they have done?

scintillating to see someone with some genuine comments and questions.
who would authenticate items that belong to troy and/or bushing? perhaps dave grob. really i'm not sure but that's more of a logistical dilemma. i'm simply having an ideological discussion here. if lampson weren't lampson, then the two sides could swap authentications of their personal items back and forth. lou could have his done by MEARS and troy and dave could have theirs done by lou. of course, in reality, that's an abysmal idea solely because lou's "not very good at what he does". troy and dave could submit their items to nick coppola's crew over at GFC or doug allen's mystery band of merrymakers at mastro.

as for what REA should've done, in my opinion, quite simply say they won't run things where the authenticator and consigner are the same person. simple no? if dave bushing loves REA (and let's face it, who doesn't?) and wants to consign all of his items there, then he can simply not grade his items and have another authenticator do it. for his bats, he can get taube or mike specht to do it.

once again, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for actually sticking to the issues.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Joel, your post was accurate and on the money. Especially the two highlighted paragraphs documented above. I also admire your ability not to be lured into a useless debate where you will never get the last word in despite yours and Mears truthfulness. Like anything else in life, no matter what you do or say, someone will have always find a way to complain about it. Good to hear from you again.
Dan

danny

good to see you addressing the actual points as usual. i succumb to yours and joel alpert's analysis; it's true that my entire take on this issue is solely because i am "jealous of MEARS practice and amazing inventory".

i also concur that the reason joel's found so much resistance on this forum is because, as he's put it before, people just don't like to hear the truth. much like the reason we've had such a hard time in iraq is because those folks just hate freedom and fun. here's hoping you and joel continue on your truth-espousing mission. maybe one day we'll all see the light.

rudy.