Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Good Morning Joel....
I don' want to wase my entire Saturday putting A5 examples up here....You've seen as many as I've seen over the years....how about Tom Brady's, Kobe Bryant, and Steelers jerseys?...go to E-bay, i'm sure there's a few Lebron James' on there....usually is
The A-5 is the biggest joke of all....if they would have gone with a pass/fail it wouldn't be as a big an issue to me...but the difference in $ between an A5 and an A10 is substantial
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Smoker...
I think with having the various grades of A5-A10 is what part of my issue is here...the difference in auction sales from an A5-A10 is enormous...and when the authenticator puts numerous pieces in an auction, that are all graded a perfect A10, that raises a lot of ethical questions
I think the whole authentication business is a scam....
I agree with all that Mears is trying to set new levels of standards...but when you compare that level in this industry vs other industries in the REAL world, Mears' standards are still in the horse and buggy stageLeave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Ok, so you don't like the system - Don't bid in their auctions or buy items with their letters. Next issue...
What "fake jerseys that have grading of A5" are you refering to?
I believe the forum rules require you to give examples of such and not just such a broad statement. Forgive me if I am wrong, but your statement doesn't have any facts to back it up.Leave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
I'd like to make 2 statements:
First: I think Mark and Troy have it right. I believe it should be a combination of factors and not just whether or not a jersey has wear on it or not when trying to determine authenticity of a jersey. How can someone discount a jersey because it does NOT have a lot of wear? Who can say what the journey of any jersey, vintage or modern, was if they weren't in the locker-room? There could be a multitude of reasons why a jersey doesn't show wear - it could have been stolen, donated to charity, player superstitions, injury, player released or taken by a player or staff member and given away to friends. It could have been removed after one game, two games or a seasons worth of use.
Second: I like MEARS and I think they do a good job. BUT, what's with the different grades of authenticity? A jersey should be either authentic or not authentic. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you are not pregnant. That's it.
But that's just my opinion.
Jim
flaa1a@comcast.netLeave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Mark...I'm looking at this outside the box...
There is fraying around the buttons from buttoning and un-buttoning the crotch piece?....that's how this is deduced as being game worn?...please
Was this jersey matched up against a known to be 100% real Jim Brown from this era? Noone knows beacuse the A10 worksheet says nothing....it reads "moderate use", "no repairs"....hmmmmm, so let's give it an A10, because if we give it a grade less than that, it won't fetch as much....what a bunch of BS...
seeing the conflict of interest yet Joel?
what do you think this jersey would have sold for if Mears would have listed it as Real, but unable to be 100% certain if it was worn on the field....like an A5 or so....half at best?
You talk about how Mears is so revolutionary....are all of the fake jerseys that have a grading of A5 revolutionary?....
until Mears decided that they were going to be an auction house, I don't think that you can make a comparison with GFC, Mastro, AMI, etc...Mears WAS an authenticator and the others are auction houses....but now that they are an auction house, they can grade everything an A10 so that they can squeeze every last penny out of the collector with their systemLeave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Instead of entering into the debate about conflicts of interest, I would like to point out a hidden nugget in this thread that is absolutely invaluable to any football jersey collector who has interests in collecting 20th century football jerseys. This information can be found in post #15 where Joel Alpert quotes Troy Kinunen's post on the MEARS website regarding older football jerseys.
Troy is dead-on in his assessment. I have been very fortunate to have had thousands of game-worn football jerseys go through my hands over the years, and I can attest that my experiences and observations are in total agreement with Mr. Kinunen.
Football jerseys for most of the 20th century were made differently and worn differently than today's jerseys. Modern jerseys are not only designed differently, they are worn very tightly. With this combination, it doesn't take much to damage a modern jersey. Older jerseys were more durable by design, and players tended to wear them more loosely. It took a lot more pulling and tugging, hits, and other similar abuse to create rips and tears.
In my humble opinion, and with all due respect to Troy, labeling the Jim Brown jersey as a tear-away jersey has created a bit of confusion and understandable questioning from some GUU members. Although I have not seen the jersey in person, judging from the photos, it appears to be simply a case where a lighter weight durene was used in manufacturing and not an actual tear-away material. (The above observation is not intended to be interpreted as any type of validation or dismissal of MEARS grading of this jersey.)
For a little background on tear-away jerseys, this style came into prominence around 1970 when college teams such as Texas, Oklahoma, and Alabama started running the wishbone. It didn't take much to destroy a tear-away jersey. Living in Alabama at the time, I was never surprised to see the QB or running backs make several changes during a game. The equipment staff would have extra jerseys tucked in their belts so that they could make quick changes on the sidelines. (The lineman and defensive players normally did not wear tear-aways.)
If the Jim Brown jersey was a true tear-away, Troy's "tugging match" would have turned a very valuable jersey into a couple of strips of cloth!
Troy's very informative and educational observation of older jerseys bears repeating. I beg each football jersey collector out there to read and absorb this golden nugget.
It is often noted that a jersey has to exhibit team repairs to be considered heavily worn. This is not a universal truth and wear can manifest itself in additional visible manners. For example, examine the area of the crotch piece of this jersey. Along the button opening reinforced stitching, you can see areas of fraying. This was caused from the buttoning and unbuttoning of the piece. The game wear is visible when examining the stress and contact marks found on the fabric. This is especially visible when examining the area of the numeral surfaces. The use may be considered light by some when comparing the fabric to a dureene example with visible team repairs, but close examination reveals wear to the overall areas of the fabric of the body shell, crotch piece and numerals.
Over the past 3 years, I have personally handled nearly 300 game used NFL jerseys. I have purchased many of them on Ebay, dealers, and game used forum members. One of the key components I have noticed was the absence of team repairs. Most of these jerseys were of common players. They were purchased with the intentions to obtain fabric samples and color templates for the MEARS archives. After each jersey was archived, many were sold.
By handling such a large random sample, I was able to empirically illustrate that NFL jerseys would have medium to heavy game wear, without team repairs. Some jerseys were found to have team repairs, but I would estimate that less than 10% of the jerseys were found with team repairs. Therefore, with the aid of actual examples, I was able to document that game worn jerseys of common players were found in high percentages (90%) to not have team repairs.
A counter argument is that common players are not superstars, nor running backs, and common players should not have the same amount of game wear as a running back of Brown's calibre. Many of the samples that we examined were of everyday starting lineman, considered common players by collectors standards. These lineman jerseys were worn in every down, yet did not have repairs. It is also interesting to note that on several instances, MEARS issued unable to authenticate on super star jerseys, bearing manufactured or contrived team repairs. It is our expert opinion team repairs do not alone make a jersey real or fake.
Now, I do not mean to offend the many collectors that have NFL jerseys exhibiting team repairs. I know they exist, and have a database file of photographed players with visible team repairs. I just want to illustrate that a jersey does not have to have a team repair in order to be considered authentic or having heavy game wear.
If any interested parties would like to further discuss the team repairs vs. non team repairs debate, I would be willing to extend an invitation this spring to the new MEARS Research and Conference Center. Our color plate copies of the NFL jerseys referenced above are available for any interested parties. We can compare your actual jerseys to our referenced color plate examples.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniformsLeave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Save your breath, Joel.....your arguing with an entity that adds no value to the hobby other than grandstanding. A10, A9, A4...it doesnt matter, if item meets the grading criteria in the Policy, WHICH was created PRIOR to said item. Dave could buy 100 GU jerseys and MEARS could grade them A10...it doesnt matter...cause ...The rules were made before the game. "IF" said item is found to be mistaken by the "actual" buyer, then said buyer can discuss with MEARS and there buyback policies.
MEARS does a great job of responding to everyones thoughts, even if they are exorbitant to the issue. Frankly, I would continue to send links to the policies that are put in place than continue to entertain weightless discussions. However, hats off to them for caring.Leave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Let me make the point totally clear so there is no confusion:
MEARS KNOWS THE CONCEPT IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST SO THEY FULLY DISCLOSE SUCH IN ADVANCE SO ANYONE WHO IS LOOKING AT AN ITEM MEARS OWNS AND AUTHENTICATED IS TOLD SUCH IN ADVANCE SO THEY CAN MAKE THEIR OWN DETERMINATION.
MEARS KNOWS THIS IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST - NO GAMES - THEY DISCLOSE SUCH.Leave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Ok, MEARS fully discloses their items, and that is all there is to it. Rudy can continue to complain about it, but the facts are clear and Troy Kinunen and Dave Grob have made every effort to publicly disclose this information and if people don't like this policy THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BUY IT.
Comparing this to if Lou Lampson consigns an item to AMI and it is authenticated by 100% Authentic, which is his signature, but AMI and Lou Lampson fully discloses they have authenticated the item: WHO CARES?
It is the same concept, and they are telling any potential buyers they owned and authenticated the item.
Then again, you could just deal with Mastro Auctions, who has a panel of secret authenticators who authenticate items and no one knows who owns the items or who authenticates them.
Again - If you do not like this policy, do not buy MEARS For Sale Items.
This debate is getting old. Having Rudy say that he never met Dave Bushing so he is not out to get him, but then he picks on Dave Bushing's taking his attacks personally time and time again shows a pattern.
I will defend any authenticator (and there are not many) who write letters for their own memorabilia and sell it retail or auction.
Oh wait - I just figured it out - Grey Flannel has been doing this since day one and no one whined about it because they do not mention that they own all the items for sale on their web site.
Guys, find better rationale or just do what an educated consumer would do - Buy elsewhere.
MEARS has done what no one else has the guts to do because they want to be honest and show an effort but all they get is people who scream "Conflict of Interest" and you know what it is a conflict of interest that they fully disclose which no one else in the industry has ever done.
Finally, as for "Missing the point" I guess you just want to join the bandwagon that this debate is over a conflict of interest - Which it is and MEARS know this, so they fully disclose such so there is no one who can complain but...
Oh wait, the usual complainers come here.
I already received an email today from a forum reader who says he is tired of the debaters always making it personal and he will no longer post on the forum, and he was a semi-regular contributor.
As usual, the masses think they are going to change the world when the changes for the good are positive and their solutions are not even reasonable.
Like MEARS is going to send their game used items to Lou Lampson for authentication. I hope others are laughing at this also. The solution is simple, MEARS writes LOAs for their own items and the FULLY DISCLOSE THIS CONFLICT OF INTEREST so anal buyers like Rudy do not buy such items since they are losing sleep over such a practice.Leave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Joel,
You again totally miss the point. I'm not saying that a phony item is being passed off as authentic by someone looking to turn a quick buck on the back of an unsuspecting collector. I'm saying that, to neutral observers or interested uninvolved observers, it would appear that there is either a conflict of interest or impropriety. Were I in the position of someone who is looking to flip a jersey or other item, I would go out of my way to whatever extent possible to ensure that there is ZERO appearance of a conflict of interest or a possible conflict of interest.
I appreciate MEARS; I have yet to use their services, but I believe they've set a standard that no one else seems to have any interest in touching. But a situation like this doesn't help their perception. If this were Lampson who acquired a jersey, then consigned it after a letter from "100% Authentic" were drawn up for it, wouldn't we be all over that and justifiably so? The various MEARS policies are terrific, but this particular situation doesn't look like something to herald.Leave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
How about if MEARS has an item of their own they authenticate, its fully disclosed and examined/authenticated by an independent 3rd party...Leave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Nathan and Rudy, fine. You don't like the way they run their business but they are not going to change it.
They have revolutionized the industry with full disclosure and if you do not like it, please continue to complain about it but at the end of the day they are doing what they find best for their business and their integrity.
No one has to buy their items, but they have set a standard that others ignore because they wish to play by rules that we wouldn't approve but since we don't know the inside facts and MEARS gladly discloses such facts for public record they get people to insult their full disclosure policy.Leave a comment:
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Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction
Joel,
Maybe it's just me, but if MEARS sent me a bagful of recent Tennessee Vols football jerseys and asked me to look at them, I'd want my name out there. And if it came down to being sent a bagful to look at that was owned by one of the higher-ups, common sense (to me anyway) would dictate that the split between the owner and the authenticator be made absolutely clear. In the interest of full disclosure, this would make sense. I believe it is beyond dispute that Dave purchased a Jim Brown jersey, his company authenticated it, and it is now consigned at auction. I also believe it is beyond dispute that this creates, at best, an enormous perception of impropriety.
Let's consider this. Say someone walks in off the street and offers me a UT Peyton Manning jersey (the ultimate grail) with no documentation. I purchase it with the intention of flipping it for a huge profit; all that I need is the authentication. I'm confident that I would be able to do it, but I would have one of the following two things happen:
1) Have someone else of similar knowledge authenticate it without me being involved, or
2) Have someone closely involved or of similar knowledge authenticate it as a supplement to my own authentication.
Since I don't like being a target for much of anything, I believe that I would go out of my way to emphasize the fact that someone "in the know" who is otherwise uninvolved also believes it to be good, and I certainly wouldn't be drawing up my own authentication letter using my own company. My goal, besides a tidy profit, would be to avoid the slightest appearance of a conflict of interest. If that means tracking down the equipment managers from that time frame and having them look at it and finding Peyton Manning and finding it as well as scouring for a photomatch, that's what it would take.
Joel, this isn't about who else is doing what or what advances MEARS has or hasn't made compared to the largely shady world of authenticating. This is about whether, in this case here, there is a conflict of interest. This is about whether, in this case here, there is the possibility for fraud to have been committed. This is about whether, in this case here, a neutral observer would question the manner in which this is being done.
I commend MEARS for going further than the others are going and certainly for striving toward full disclosure. I don't believe this case helps that cause at all.Leave a comment:
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