Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

[slats7]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

anyway it's amazing how far some will go to make a few extra bucks...

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Which makes me think that dalcowbill would have been much better off trying to pass off his phony Staubach helmet as a 1971 or '72 model instead of '75. Of course, the date code made that impossible, so he stuck to his guns and hoped that no prospective buyers would research Roger's helmet history. He eventually wrangled a sucker.

[aeneas01]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

If the Leland's jersey is fake (and I'm still leaning that way), then someone went to a great deal of trouble to make it look like the real thing--right down to the mended tear.

this statement reminded me of a dallas cowboys helmet that sold on ebay a couple of years ago. it was listed as a hurvin mccormack gamer and included a "mccormack" rear dymo tape. it went for a steal. it was then relisted a month later as helmet belonging to pro bowler a leon lett with a new dymo tape reflecting lett's name. when i contacted the seller, he told me that he had purchased it from a brick & mortar dealer, that he didn't buy the mccormack helmet, but nonetheless didn't feel comfortable giving me the name of the b&m or the bm's location.

he said he was embarrassed, honest mistake, and pulled it. a few weeks later the helmet surfaced again on ebay, but this time as a cowboys gamer attributed to no specific player. the dymo tape? the seller had actually photoshoped out the name on the dymo tape in his ad - he apparently thought this would keep it from being recognized as the mccormack that was turned into a lett helmet...

photo on the left is when it was listed as mccormack's helmet, photo on the right when it was listed as lett's helmet:




left photo mccormack, center photo same helmet but with a lett dymo tape (note the "game used" ragged look he gave that tape!), right photo the photoshoped ad...




anyway it's amazing how far some will go to make a few extra bucks...

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[slats7]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

and i also think it's safe to say that the photos you posted are not from the cowboys' 1973 camp! the shots appear to be snatched "vintage sports images" which would explain the problem given that they often misdate their photos. getty and wire have these camp photos dated as may 1972, but it's a only "date created" reference (read posted) which is not the same as a "date taken" reference. imo the shots are actually from the cowboys' 1970 training camp...

Couldn't find these pix (or anything similar to them) at Getty. And if anyone plays fast and loose with dates, it's Getty. In the early 70s, it was common practice to print the month and the year on the cardboard section of the slide. Of course, that would only denote when the slide was developed, not necessarily when it was taken. Maybe VSI noticed such a date on one of the Staubach slides. Maybe not. It would be irresponsible of them to simply guess.

here's another example of a "vintage sports images" date error - they attribute this shot to 1973 - of course staubach didn't sport a suspension helmet in 1973. the photo is actually from the cowboys 1972 divisional playoff game against the 49ers...

Well, he wore the exact same helmet a week later in DC, meaning January of 1973, so they were in the "vicinity" of the truth.

[aeneas01]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

Not to beat a dead horse, but here are three training camp pics from 1973. I think it's safe to say that the helmet depicted is not the same one in HH's collection.

and i also think it's safe to say that the photos you posted are not from the cowboys' 1973 camp! the shots appear to be snatched "vintage sports images" which would explain the problem given that they often misdate their photos. getty and wire have these camp photos dated as may 1972, but it's a only "date created" reference (read posted) which is not the same as a "date taken" reference. imo the shots are actually from the cowboys' 1970 training camp...

here's another example of a "vintage sports images" date error - they attribute this shot to 1973 - of course staubach didn't sport a suspension helmet in 1973. the photo is actually from the cowboys 1972 divisional playoff game against the 49ers...



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[slats7]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

Not to beat a dead horse, but here are three training camp pics from 1973. I think it's safe to say that the helmet depicted is not the same one in HH's collection.

[John in KY]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

to tell you the truth john, your post strikes me as somewhat accusatory, rather suspicious in nature, as if you're implying that helmet hut is trying to pull a fast one.

you state that helmet hut is "pretty good about confirming the shell date stamps", but since no mention was made in this instance it strikes you as "conspicuously absent". first, a quick look at the many helmets featured at helmet hut will easily confirm that hh often doesn't bother to mention what a helmet's date stamp is in their informative write ups - in fact, mention of a helmet's date stamp in these descriptions is more the exception than the rule. second, when looking at the page hh has dedicated to the staubach helmet, i think it's more than obvious that hh has clearly identified it as staubach's 1973 helmet - in bold letters, at the top of the page, in the title. yet because they fail to also mention a 1973 date stamp, you construe this as suspicuous, "conspicuosly absent"? i just don't get it.

also, hh makes absolutely no mention or reference to the 1972 season in their write up, none whatsoever. in fact hh is perfectly clear that it's a 1973 helmet that they're presenting to their reader's. yet you seem to want to make a case that it's not his 1972 helmet, as if hh is suggesting that perhaps it is. i took a stab at sarcasm with my last post, trying to point out that it was painfully obvious that the hh lid wasn't his 1972 gamer which hh would obviously know, but i missed the mark (i have to stop hanging out with "helmets"!).

anyway, it seems to me that helmet hut has clearly stated in their description of this helmet that it was obtained at the start of the 1973 training camp, not before the start of training camp, not at the end of the 1972 season. further, it seems to me that hh is saying that staubach wore this lid at the start of training camp, apparently during an early camp scrimmage game (i know the cowboys had a long history of scrimmaging my rams during that era) and, as such, it could very well represent the last riddell staubach ever wore.


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Going back and rereading my post it does come off that way - which was not my intent. My apoligies to Curtis and HH.

I don't think HH was trying to pull a fast one - it isn't even their helmet. It belongs to the Cowboys Hall of Fame and is going to be on display when their new stadium opens and HH was just showing it off. Frankly I thought Curtis mentioned date stamps on more of the famous player game-used helmets he has on display. I thought perhaps it could have been the 1972 helmet since Staubach didn't play much in 1972; the photo evidence in this thread cleary indicates that it isn't (missing some drill holes, etc.). My belief is this helmet was ordered for Stauback for 1973 and was never worn as he switched to the Marietta.

And on that note goodbye.

[aeneas01]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

I never turned up the piece that I thought I read where Maxpro was a "brand" under Marietta. Everything I can fine show that Maxpro bought Marietta from bankruptcy and kept Kineomatic in production. I was thinking about them still making Kelleys as a brand.

yes, kineomatic was the model (and name) that maxpro kept alive when they purchased the company from marietta, as opposed to maxpro being a "second brand" under marietta. much like kelley kept the 100mh model (and name) alive when they purchased the company from macgregor. at least that's always been my understanding which seems to be supported by the kineomatic helmets in circulation, some with marietta logos and some with maxpro logos...

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[aeneas01]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

Based on the other better photos from the '72 playoff game that HelmetHut piece pretty clearly isn't Staubach's 1972 helmet. It might have been a new 1973 Riddell (usually HelmetHut is pretty good about confirming the shell date stamps but that is conspicously absent in their write-up) that the Cowboys had that was never used since he switched to the Marietta/Maxpro.

to tell you the truth john, your post strikes me as somewhat accusatory, rather suspicious in nature, as if you're implying that helmet hut is trying to pull a fast one.

you state that helmet hut is "pretty good about confirming the shell date stamps", but since no mention was made in this instance it strikes you as "conspicuously absent". first, a quick look at the many helmets featured at helmet hut will easily confirm that hh often doesn't bother to mention what a helmet's date stamp is in their informative write ups - in fact, mention of a helmet's date stamp in these descriptions is more the exception than the rule. second, when looking at the page hh has dedicated to the staubach helmet, i think it's more than obvious that hh has clearly identified it as staubach's 1973 helmet - in bold letters, at the top of the page, in the title. yet because they fail to also mention a 1973 date stamp, you construe this as suspicuous, "conspicuosly absent"? i just don't get it.

also, hh makes absolutely no mention or reference to the 1972 season in their write up, none whatsoever. in fact hh is perfectly clear that it's a 1973 helmet that they're presenting to their reader's. yet you seem to want to make a case that it's not his 1972 helmet, as if hh is suggesting that perhaps it is. i took a stab at sarcasm with my last post, trying to point out that it was painfully obvious that the hh lid wasn't his 1972 gamer which hh would obviously know, but i missed the mark (i have to stop hanging out with "helmets"!).

anyway, it seems to me that helmet hut has clearly stated in their description of this helmet that it was obtained at the start of the 1973 training camp, not before the start of training camp, not at the end of the 1972 season. further, it seems to me that hh is saying that staubach wore this lid at the start of training camp, apparently during an early camp scrimmage game (i know the cowboys had a long history of scrimmaging my rams during that era) and, as such, it could very well represent the last riddell staubach ever wore.


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[John in KY]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

Based on the other better photos from the '72 playoff game that HelmetHut piece pretty clearly isn't Staubach's 1972 helmet. It might have been a new 1973 Riddell (usually HelmetHut is pretty good about confirming the shell date stamps but that is conspicously absent in their write-up) that the Cowboys had that was never used since he switched to the Marietta/Maxpro.

I believe the plastic is acutally Lexan (made by GE) not "Lexon" as stated in the write-up. I never turned up the piece that I thought I read where Maxpro was a "brand" under Marietta. Everything I can fine show that Maxpro bought Marietta from bankruptcy and kept Kineomatic in production. I was thinking about them still making Kelleys as a brand.

Great photos and info as always on this forum!

[yosef777]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

John in KY brought up an interesting thought in regards to MaxPro being a 'brand' of Marietta. Anyone else have more any info in that regard?
I recently obtained a Chiefs Marietta K 112 Suspension helmet which looks and feels identical to my MaxPro Kineomatic 21 helmet in terms of the shape of the shell. However, it is an impregnated red plastic (not a clear shell) and has a traditional style riveted, suspension opposed to the leather pads that were velcroed in the Kineomatics.
I also included a brief but informative write up from Helmet Hut's Dr. Del Rye column which gives a history of Marietta and Maxpro.

"Marietta Corp. of Dallas Texas was founded by a California dentist named Dr. Marietta in the late 1940s or early 1950s. They initially produced sports mouth guards and facemasks. Eventually (in the late 1950s?) they started making a suspension football helmet to compete with Riddell.

In the early 1970s Marietta invented the clear shell Lexon shell helmet. Their Lexon shell was twice as thick as the rival Macgregor clear shell helmet which was invented in the late 1950s or the very early 1960s. The Marietta clear shell Lexon helmet used Velcro attached padding compared to the Macgregor helmet which used a riveted in top leather added suspension combined with sewn in (later plastic tab snapped in) padding. During this same period Marietta also introduced a non-clear shell with the same padding system as their clear shell Lexon helmet. In approximately 1977 the Marietta Corp. went bankrupt.

Maxpro started in approximately 1978 when they bought out the bankrupt Marietta Corp. Maxpro used the newly acquired but antiquated Marietta manufacturing facility in Dallas until 1981 when they built a new high tech facility in Grand Prairie, Texas. In addition to building a new manufacturing facility (in the mid 80's) Maxpro also bought the Bill Kelley helmet company around the same time. Kelley started in 1977 after purchasing the Macgregor helmet line which had been dormant since 1974. Maxpro produced their helmet and the newly acquired Kelley helmet in their new Grand Prairie facility. Unfortunately, Maxpro went out of business due to skyrocketing liability insurance costs in approximately 1984-85."

[aeneas01]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

It's interesting to note in the first photo this helmet appears drilled for a "U-bar" - you can see the holes under the blue stripes.

it wasn't uncommon for riddell helmets to leave the factory pre-drilled to accommodate "cage" facemasks, i.e. facemasks that were attached to the top and sides of the helmet. with that in mind, one has to wonder why the helmet hut lid only has drill holes at the top, not on sides given that staubach's 1972 gamer was clearly drilled in both locations.

On a side note - I think I read somewhere that "Maxpro" was a second "brand" for Marietta applied only to those kinetic helmets - kind of like Ford owns the brand "Lincoln" - but when the company changed hands in the mid 1970s it took the Maxpro name.

as far as the jersey is concerned, i didn't catch the chat about the hole - given this it's pretty clear that he's not sporting the same jersey in the rams game which i thought could be the case...

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[slats7]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

Here's a photo from the '72 playoff game. Pretty safe to say it's not the same one in the Helmet Hut collection. The game photo shows an extra "stud" forward of the earhole, and the star itself is placed much higher on the helmet than the HH example.

[mvandor]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

I kinda doubt that that helmet was used in the Dallas-Frisco playoff game or any other game. Looks too darn pristine to me. No scratches, no chipped paint, facebar looks brand new, etc. More likely it was "game-issued" but never used. Still valuable, though.

If it was obtained prior to the 1973 training camp, it had likely been refurbished in the off-season with the expectation Staubach would be using it, but he switched to Maxpro instead making this lid expendable in compliance with the high ranking NFL team exec's request.

Of course, the only provenance HH shares is that story really, so who knows?

[slats7]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

According to Helmet - this one they have displayed should be that helmet that Staubach is holding above. According to the HelmetHut text it was acquired from the team before training camp in 1973 - which would correspond to Staubach's switch to the Maritta/Maxpro helmets. Photo from HelmetHut:



It's interesting to note in the first photo this helmet appears drilled for a "U-bar" - you can see the holes under the blue stripes.

On a side note - I think I read somewhere that "Maxpro" was a second "brand" for Marietta applied only to those kinetic helmets - kind of like Ford owns the brand "Lincoln" - but when the company changed hands in the mid 1970s it took the Maxpro name. I'm not sure of the details, but at some point they also either merged with Kelley or at least took over producing and distributing them while Kelley himself retained ownership.

I kinda doubt that that helmet was used in the Dallas-Frisco playoff game or any other game. Looks too darn pristine to me. No scratches, no chipped paint, facebar looks brand new, etc. More likely it was "game-issued" but never used. Still valuable, though.

[John in KY]

Re: Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

It's interesting to note in the first photo this helmet appears drilled for a "U-bar" - you can see the holes under the blue stripes.

EDIT - I thought the holes were too narrow for a Wildcat sweatband which is why I said "U-bar", but upon closer look the holes would be the same for a U-bar and a sweatband. Also didn't realize you can't edit your posts here.