A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

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  • sammy
    Banned
    • Nov 2005
    • 732

    A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

    Reprinted from:

    http://www.autographalert.com/news.html


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    May 5, 2009

    Third Party Autograph Authenticators Spark talks of a Class Action Lawsuit?

    1899 Ed Delahanty Secretarial Letter sells for $30,000, Ignites Debate

    The buzz on the street is that some collectors and autograph dealers are talking about a class action lawsuit against companies who claim that they can authenticate autographs. The talk is not only against the companies but also against the individuals who are willing to have their names listed as “experts.” It is said that even if one of the so called “experts” never authenticated an autograph for the company, they have offered the use of their name which can mislead collectors into thinking the authenticator is active with the company. The listing of a person’s name as an expert who is not used for authenticating is more common than you would think.

    Some collectors have been duped into purchasing an autograph based on the belief it was authentic because of certain people being listed as an “expert.” In many cases the “expert” was never aware the autograph was submitted to the company for examination. Several “experts” we have talked to have confirmed they have never been asked to authenticate an autograph from the 3rd party authenticating company which lists their name.

    The list seems to be endless with just the major errors in autograph authenticating these companies have made. Some of those, associated with third party authenticating companies, have made $100,000 plus mistakes even authenticating celebrity hair which was offered at auction. When proven later the hair was not from the head of the person described, the auction was forced to make a refund.

    Fifty thousand dollar plus mistakes in mis-authenticating rare autographs by third party authenticators common. Frequent errors in all fields of collecting are made whether it be sports, entertainment or political autographs. In rare cases refunds are made by the seller or auction company but usually with an agreement that the person getting the refund does not make the incident public.

    It is beginning to appear collectors have had enough of 3rd party autograph authenticators who accept payment to offer simply a guess or give an opinion and offer absolutely no guarantees. Many feel it is past due, when errors in authenticating are made, the individuals who agree to be listed as “experts” need to be held accountable.

    The following example is what has happened in the now complicated world of autographs. It was a sports item that appeared in a Nov.10/11, 2006 Hunt Auction. Listed as item #474, it was described as a handwritten letter by Ed Delahanty, member of the Baseball Hall of Fame. The letter was dated, Phila, Pa Dec.27, 1899. The item sold for a whopping $29,900. The letter was accompanied with an LOA from James Spence Authentication. WWW.autographalert.com declared the letter as NOT GENUINE in the article: "James Spence of James Spence Authentication Hits A Foul Ball," dated December 23, 2006 . The story can be found in the archives of this website: September- December, 2006

    Some other hobby veteran’s got on board and notified Hunt Auctions questioning the letters authenticity. Attempts to contact James Spence by www.autographalert.com over this issue was fruitless. He just doesn’t respond!

    To continue, the owner of the same Delahanty letter recently consigned it to Robert Edward Auctions. It appeared as item #913 and the auction was scheduled to end May 2, 2009. This time the Delahanty letter comes complete with what is called “Full LOA’s from both James Spence Authentication, Certificate #B49257 and PSA/DNA Certificate #G56541.”

    Both James Spence Authentication and PSA/DNA are also authenticators for eBay.

    The persons named below have chosen to be listed as autograph authenticators for these companies.PSA/DNA
    • Steve Grad
    • James Camner
    • Bob Eaton
    • T.J. Kaye
    • Kevin Keating
    • Kevin Low
    • John Reznikoff
    • Zach Rullo
    • Bob Zafian
    James Spence Authentication
    • James Spence
      Larry Studebaker
    • Scott Cornish
    • Bob Eaton
    • Mike Gutierrez
    • Kip Ingle
    • Tom Kramer
    • Frank Kukla
    • John Reznikoff
    • Roger Epperson
    • Scott Stiwell
    • J. Bardwell
    Catalog description stated in part Delahanty’s “...signature in any form is one of the most significant and rarest of all Hall of Famers. It is one of the true Holy Grails of Hall of Fame signature collecting, a virtually impossible-to-obtain stumbling block to any complete Hall of Fame signature collection...only a few examples of Delahanty’s signature are known to exist...”

    Immediately upon receipt of the auction catalog, two hobby veterans notified Robert Lifson, President of Robert Edward Auctions that the Delahanty letter was not genuine. The industry recognized experts are Ron Keurajian who has been dealing in autographs since the 1970's. Mr. Keurajian has written nearly 40 signature studies on members of the Baseball Hall of Fame for Sports Collector's Digest. He has also written signature studies for Autograph magazine and is presently completing a book on the signatures of the members of the Baseball Hall of Fame. The other autograph expert is Steve Koschal who has studied autographs since the 1960's. He has maintained one of the largest autograph reference libraries in the world and his article on autograph reference books won him a first place award by an autograph organization. He is also the author of several books as well as over 200 articles that have been published on autograph collecting. Koschal also represented the United States of America and the Federal Bureau of Investigation as their autograph expert in Federal Court for “Operation Bullpen.”

    Mr. Lifson was very responsive with the two experts in an exchange of several emails regarding the Delahanty letter. Keurajian and Koschal both advised Mr. Lifson that Delahanty’s signature on the letter was mis-spelled, "Delehanty" (see below), a common mistake to this day by those who write about Delahanty. However, Delahanty, a graduate of St. Joseph's University, presumably could spell his own name correctly.



    In the meantime interested parties were placing bids for the letter. Bidding reached $15,000 the day before the end of the sale. Mr. Lifson, still accepting the decisions of the two authenticating companies did notify Kerujian and Koschal that he will do and his own research. This is the research the 3rd party authenticators should have done before they charged someone for the costs of the COA’s they issued. Mr. Lifson was successful finding information about Delahanty and “requested that PSA/DNA and JSA review the authentication of the item in great detail armed with the research we (Lifson) has provided.” In the meantime, a little discouraging was that Mr. Lifson stated: “...we will go with what our authenticators decide....” this was the day before the auction would end. It was not clear with all the prior documented mistakes made by these two companies why Mr. Lifson would be interested in what they now had to say.

    In the meantime Mr. Lifson discovered through Delahanty’s biographer that Ed Delahanty was not in Philadelphia in December 1899.





    On the last day of the auction, Mr. Lifson sent an email to Steve Koschal indicating “the Delahanty letter has been withdrawn from the auction....”



    The Ed Delahanty letter, right (note the mis-spelling: "Delehanty") Mr. Lifson continued (referring to a response he received from James Spence): “...is no longer comfortable with their previous authentication, and believes the letter appears to be a vintage secretarial version.

    I appreciate your communicating with us about this item.”

    Robert Edward Auctions did the right thing not only by willing to work with Keurajian and Koschal but going the extra mile and doing some of their own research.

    This does not end here.

    James Spence was contacted about the authenticity of this Delahanty letter shortly after the Hunt sale. Because Spence was unwilling to discuss his decision on this letter with experts, the winning bidder paid for the item not knowing the letter's authenticity was in question.

    Robert Edward Auctions will be returning this basically worthless letter to the consignor.

    If the consignor had bought the letter from a professional dealer who “guarantees” what they sell, he would have received a refund long ago.

    Who will admit or take responsibility for the original sale of the Delahanty letter? The auction house or James Spence Authentication?

    This $29,900 authenticating error could be added to a class action lawsuit!
  • mvandor
    Banned
    • Apr 2007
    • 1032

    #2
    Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

    Very interesting, but this website's agenda is well known: drive all third party authenticators out of business.

    Comment

    • Capital-Sports
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2009
      • 259

      #3
      Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

      I haven't read the whole article yet, but the websites agenda isn't to drive all 3rd party authenticators our of business. This site tells about their mishaps, while other sites only glorify them. This site is the medium balance.

      Comment

      • mvandor
        Banned
        • Apr 2007
        • 1032

        #4
        Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

        Originally posted by Capital-Sports
        I haven't read the whole article yet, but the websites agenda isn't to drive all 3rd party authenticators our of business. This site tells about their mishaps, while other sites only glorify them. This site is the medium balance.
        I hope you're saying that THIS site (GUU) is the "medium balance", because I've been monitoring autographalert.com for years, and I assure you it is an extremist site intent on driving authenticators OUT OF BUSINESS.

        Comment

        • treant985
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2008
          • 481

          #5
          Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

          It might be noteworthy to consider that 99.99% of the time during Delahanty's lifetime, everybody spelled his name as Delehanty. I don't know if he personally spelled it that way (supposedly, it was only found out that he spelled it Delahanty after his death when his birth certificate was uncovered).

          Comment

          • Capital-Sports
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 259

            #6
            Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

            Im saying for autographs........I know 3rd party authenticators for autographs aren't always correct, but on the other sites I go on they get praised as being "experts" in their field, when in fact I have seen forgeries being authenticated by them.......Autographalert only states the bad things that happen with the authenticators, which I think is a good thing, because it's the same as this site, only without the 1000's of posts....and dealing with autographs, not game used.

            Comment

            • sammy
              Banned
              • Nov 2005
              • 732

              #7
              Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

              James Spence Authentication, LLC

              Certification and authentication involves an individual judgment that is subjective and requires the exercise of professional opinion, which can change from time to time. Therefore, JSA makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to the customer for the opinion rendered by JSA on any submission.

              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              PSA/DNA

              Q: Do you guarantee that the autographs you certify are genuine and those you do not are fake?

              A: No. We do not guarantee autographs under the Vintage Certified program. By using this program, you are paying for the opinion of the top experts in the world, using state-of-the-art examination tools and techniques.

              -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              So, who is going to refund the 29,900.00 some unlucky person paid for this letter?

              Both of the companies mentioned above will gladly refund the authentication fee, but that is all. Even though the buyer depended on the "expertise" of these self-proclaimed experts to make the purchase?

              I personally applaud the guys at http://www.autographalert.com/news.html.

              If their only agenda is to continuously expose these "experts" and their true lack of expertise, I say go for it.

              It is better to expose this garbage, then to sweep it under the rug as these companies would like.

              I don't see why any person would object to exposing this garbage, unless that person has a monetary or business interest in the item and/or the authentication and/or auction company.

              Comment

              • mvandor
                Banned
                • Apr 2007
                • 1032

                #8
                Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

                Originally posted by sammy
                I don't see why any person would object to exposing this garbage, unless that person has a monetary or business interest in the item and/or the authentication and/or auction company.
                I see no problem wiith presenting balanced views, but this site does NOT even attempt to do that. Do third party authenticators make errors? Of course, and it's easy to shine spotlights on them. However, I'd be MORE interested in a balanced analysis giving us some idea of the batting average of the main companies.

                THAT would provide perspective.

                autographalerts.com will NEVER do that.

                The domain name is registered to the infamous Steve Koschal (Google him if you want to learn more about his background) - the same Koschal referred to in the article as the "expert" challenging the letter - as though he weren't also the site owner and maybe even the actual author of the article.

                Comment

                • sammy
                  Banned
                  • Nov 2005
                  • 732

                  #9
                  Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

                  Still begs the question.

                  Who is responsible for refunding the 29,900.00?


                  --------------------------------------------------------------

                  I'm not looking for a balanced view. Don't find any on the PSA or JSA web sites, or web sites that promote these companies.

                  I am just looking to help collectors make an informed decision before they lose a lot of money.

                  I'm sure the person who paid 29,900.00 for that letter would have liked to have the information provided to Hunt auctions before the auction ended, or he/she paid for the fake letter.

                  Comment

                  • mvandor
                    Banned
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 1032

                    #10
                    Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

                    Originally posted by sammy
                    Still begs the question.

                    Who is responsible for refunding the 29,900.00?

                    --------------------------------------------------------------

                    I'm not looking for a balanced view. Don't find any on the PSA or JSA web sites, or web sites that promote these companies.

                    I am just looking to help collectors make an informed decision before they lose a lot of money.

                    I'm sure the person who paid 29,900.00 for that letter would have liked to have the information provided to Hunt auctions before the auction ended, or he/she paid for the fake letter.
                    Which begs me to ask your feelings on third party authenticators. Are they similar to the "burn 'em at the stake" mantra perpetuated at that site?

                    Comment

                    • earlywynnfan
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2005
                      • 1271

                      #11
                      Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

                      The domain name is registered to the infamous Steve Koschal (Google him if you want to learn more about his background) - the same Koschal referred to in the article as the "expert" challenging the letter - as though he weren't also the site owner and maybe even the actual author of the article.[/quote]


                      I laugh at the time I emailed autographalert to try to get a message to Koschal. They replied back how they could try to forward the message to him, but weren't really sure how to get a hold of him. Uh, whatever, dude!

                      I enjoy the site and check in weekly, but do take their postings with a grain of salt.

                      Ken
                      earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

                      Comment

                      • trsent
                        Banned
                        • Nov 2005
                        • 3739

                        #12
                        Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

                        Originally posted by mvandor
                        Very interesting, but this website's agenda is well known: drive all third party authenticators out of business.
                        Originally posted by Capital-Sports
                        I haven't read the whole article yet, but the websites agenda isn't to drive all 3rd party authenticators our of business. This site tells about their mishaps, while other sites only glorify them. This site is the medium balance.
                        Originally posted by mvandor
                        I hope you're saying that THIS site (GUU) is the "medium balance", because I've been monitoring autographalert.com for years, and I assure you it is an extremist site intent on driving authenticators OUT OF BUSINESS.

                        I have posted time and time again - Autograph Alert is owned by people who are autograph authenticators themselves. Let me find the previous discussion about them:



                        Originally posted by trsent
                        I forget if it was on Gavel Chat a few months ago, but that web site is a witch hunt where the owners and posters on it are just out to bash autograph authenticators. They have no balls - They do not sign their posts. They try to hide their web site's ownership as they are a hidden bash board.

                        Scroll down the latest news and they are whining that R&R Auctions and PSA/DNA confused Danny Kaye and Danny Thomas - Who cares? Like this was an intentional error - They are looking for trouble in the wrong places. They do not back up their claims with any proof and they just call out items and errors (and a suicide by an auction house employee) but do not sign their articles except with an AOL email address on their home page.

                        Here, I found the Gavel Chat article about this web site:

                        Thursday, June 05, 2008
                        Hard-hitting autograph website lacks credibilty
                        Posted by Chris

                        I recently stumbled upon a website called autographalert.com, and I must say, it really touches on some hard-hitting issues in the autograph world. The one problem I have with it, however, is that (from what I could see) there was no author's name on who wrote these articles and many of the stories use anonymous and/or one-sided sources in the stories.

                        For those of you who have been longtime readers of Gavel Chat, you'll know that we are big on credibility and standing behind what we write.

                        I did a website lookup to see who autographalert.com was registered under (considering I searched their entire site twice and couldn't even find a contact name, just a generic email address) and this was the info that I turned up:

                        Registrant:
                        Autograph Alert

                        PO Box 297167
                        Pembroke Pines, Florida 33029
                        United States

                        Registered through: Broadband National, LLC
                        Domain Name: AUTOGRAPHALERT.COM
                        Created on: 16-Mar-05
                        Expires on: 16-Mar-09
                        Last Updated on: 16-Mar-08

                        Administrative Contact:
                        Mike Frost, Steve Koschal steve@paasaa.com
                        Autograph Alert
                        PO Box 297167
                        Pembroke Pines, Florida 33029
                        United States
                        (561) 582-4439



                        Now, from what I remember, Frost and Koschal are considered autograph authenticators. I also really think there is some interesting reading on their site, but I have little respect for any entity that writes nearly all negative articles, with many anonymous and/or one-sided sources. Also, I can't respect or seriously acknowledge a story that doesn't include a byline...

                        Makes no sense to me. If all this information is so important to the hobby, and they stand behind it, why on earth wouldn't they want credit for their findings?
                        Originally posted by trsent
                        I forgot to include links yesterday that were easily found when doing research. First off, the email address for the domain registration Chris Nerat found is an email address found at: paasaa.com

                        This is a pretty funny web site, as it is a 3rd party autograph authenticator that I have never heard of. When you click their link to their other web site: http://www.paasautographs.com/ you find another PAAS web site.

                        Then, if you click on their eBay link, they have nothing for sale, but their feedback is funny: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...=p3911.c0.m198

                        Their eBay user id is: pro-authentication

                        So, what is shown here is that this 3rd party authentication company, which this week is taking a shot at James Spense Authentication for offering a $5.00 certification special, making it look such as if business is bad, is operated by the same people who have the Autograph Alert web site.

                        It wouldn't be as big of a concern, but they have a web site attacking PSA/DNA and JSA but they do not attribute their articles to anyone. The only contact information on the web site is a generic AOL email address.

                        So, until these guys grow up and admit there is competition to their service, which may not be doing well since they were selling "BABE RUTH AUTOGRAPH AUTHENTICATION SERVICES / P.A.A.S." on eBay for $29.00 their service may never make it.

                        So easy, run an honest business that doesn't try to succeed by tearing holes, often unproven, in their competition and maybe your company will one day succeed.

                        Comment

                        • sammy
                          Banned
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 732

                          #13
                          Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

                          Hey, let's kill the messenger, and forget that some unlucky person is out 29,900.00 because of these "experts" lack of expertise.

                          SCD sure is a good source to quote, with their total lack of creditability in all aspects of this hobby / business.

                          I really don't care what their agenda is, or who owns it, or if they are in the authenticating business.

                          Nor do I care what the agenda is of all the people on here who expose these types of things from MEARS, Grey Flannel, Mastro, Lampson, eBay, you, me, Yogi Bear, Scooby Doo, or whomever.

                          I just want to see this garbage exposed.

                          Comment

                          • trsent
                            Banned
                            • Nov 2005
                            • 3739

                            #14
                            Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

                            Originally posted by sammy
                            Hey, let's kill the messenger, and forget that some unlucky person is out 29,900.00 because of these "experts" lack of expertise.

                            SCD sure is a good source to quote, with their total lack of creditability in all aspects of this hobby / business.

                            I really don't care what their agenda is, or who owns it, or if they are in the authenticating business.

                            Nor do I care what the agenda is of all the people on here who expose these types of things from MEARS, Grey Flannel, Mastro, Lampson, eBay, you, me, Yogi Bear, Scooby Doo, or whomever.

                            I just want to see this garbage exposed.
                            Ok, so they should have a mysterious site, attacking their competition, not signing their post or their site and hiding as if they are honest, reputable people when they are not willing to even put their name on their web site.

                            Any issues brought up on this fine site, Game Used Universe, has the author take credit for their findings so they can be questioned and held accountable for their concerns. Your support of this site, which many have posted has an hidden agenda, is your business but every time you post about them people bring up questions about their credibility.

                            Look at my link above. I found they were questioning something such as an Andrew Jackson autograph in a Mastro Auction, but no one could find the item they were questioning. It was random attack with to attribution to an auction item number, auction date, or anything but a blanket statement because they just love to attack anyone who authenticates autographs who does not work for their organization.

                            I want a man to sign his findings and stand behind his work - Not hide their hidden agenda which is to attack any 3rd party authenticator but their own, unheard of company.

                            At least when PSA/DNA or JSA gives an opinion of an item - They sign their name to their work. Does Autograph Alert take the time to sign their articles or findings? Don't answer - We all know the answer - They are baiters who look to attack others in a poor effort to hopefully, one day, grow their own authentication business.

                            They can keep selling opinions on eBay for $7.00 each. Some people value their service. I see in the last two weeks they have sold about $40.00 in opinions on eBay alone!

                            If you want to expose anyone in this industry - Be a man and sign your name to your findings. Otherwise, without attributing, their findings are WORTHLESS because they do not have the balls to take credit for their work because they are hiding a hidden agenda.

                            End of story - Expose anything you want but take credit for your work, unless you have something to hide yourself.

                            Comment

                            • trsent
                              Banned
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 3739

                              #15
                              Re: A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

                              Originally posted by sammy
                              Hey, let's kill the messenger, and forget that some unlucky person is out 29,900.00 because of these "experts" lack of expertise.

                              SCD sure is a good source to quote, with their total lack of creditability in all aspects of this hobby / business.

                              I really don't care what their agenda is, or who owns it, or if they are in the authenticating business.

                              Nor do I care what the agenda is of all the people on here who expose these types of things from MEARS, Grey Flannel, Mastro, Lampson, eBay, you, me, Yogi Bear, Scooby Doo, or whomever.

                              I just want to see this garbage exposed.
                              By the waytry to discredit Chris Nerat's findings about who owns the Autograph Alert site. It really shows your lack of concern for the hidden agenda of attempted anonymous web site.

                              Chris found public information, so because you say SCD has a lack of credibility - Tell me - Prove one word incorrect in Chris Nerat's article I quoted above when he was still working for Sports Collectors Digest.

                              Common - I challenge you - Find anything that was not 100% The Truth in the article since you bashed SCD's credibility to make the truth look honest.

                              Chris Nerat signed his work in that article, he took credit for his findings and you bashed it because it was published on SCD's web site - Please find errors with his article and publish them or don't put anything down from him or SCD over the fact that your friends from Autograph Alert have an agenda to bring the few errors their competition makes into the spotlight in an effort to help their authentication service that, as we see, did around $40.00 in authentication sales on eBay over the past two weeks!

                              Wow! That $40.00 makes the Autograph Alert web site worth all the money they will one day have to pay in legal fees for their slander of issues time and time again.

                              Comment

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