Lebron jersey - A5

[aeneas01]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

one thing i've always found confusing about the A5 is that on one hand mears states that they aren't saying the item was game-worn but they then go on to describe the wear. "exhibits wear..but we're not saying it was game-worn". brilliant.

no doubt zonker. below is an "a5" lebron jersey that sold at rea... is there anything stated in the lot description that could possibly lead a collector to believe that the jersey was something other than an authentic game shirt once belonging to lebron? could the alluring description and tidbits of information offered in the lot description possibly be construed as anything other than a vote of authenticity? i'm sorry but pointing to the fact that "game issued" or "game worn" wasn't employed in the lot title doesn't fly imo nor does pointing to a "lowly" a5 grade. not when terms such as "displays light use" are used and the a5 grade is followed by "no post 1987 jersey can achieve a higher grade than a5..." (btw, is it just me or can others see how that little a5 disclosure could easily come across as meaning the lot was awarded the highest possible grade, 5 out of 5, given the other grade scale can't be used without paper work?).

zonker, you mentioned that you've found the use of a5 grading confusing - well it seems that you are not alone given that 21 of the 22 a5 items i listed in my previous post (a5 lots sold at auction during the last three years) were described as "game used" or "game worn" by the auction houses that listed them. either all of these auction houses were trying to pull a fast one or it's pretty apparent that the "a5 model" is broken, i'm thinking the latter. btw, the only auction house listed above that didn't use the term "game used" or "game worn" to describe their a5 piece was hunt - instead they described it as follows (hmmmm...):

"2001 Randy Johnson Arizona Diamondbacks home jersey. Pinstriped home knit jersey with "A" logo on front and "Johnson" on the back above #51. Tail front has Rawlings tagging with "Set 2 2001" flag tag, 5" extra length tag, and size 52 flag tag. Shirt exhibits light use and wash wear. Fine example dating to Johnson's Cy Young and World Series Co-MVP season. Includes LOA from MEARS Authentication (Graded A5): EX-MT"

the a5 lebron jersey sold at rea:




the more i think about this a5 nonsense the more i wonder if i'm not simply missing out on the perfect stay at home job for my mrs. she could arrange a bulk buy from jersey joe (you know, get him to come down on his pricing a bit on about 50 shirts), have jersey joe send the bulk purchase directly to mears for a5 grades and then have mears ship the shirts directly to rea. what are we talking, a couple of phone calls, tops? 20 minutes on the tin cans? $500 shirts (i'm assuming the mrs. can get jj to swing a deal, she's pretty damn persuasive) flipped at an average price of $1,500-$2,500 each. not too shabby...

wait a minute - that could be just the tip of the work from home iceberg. heck, the mrs. could also broker a blockbuster deal between mears and ebay's gridiron authentics. i mean 'ol ga gets their hands on a ton of "game issue" lids that are just like what the pros wear, give or take some sizing issues on their tom brady lids (he sports an xl, ga only has large - but, hey, that's well within troy's variance schedule, no? if it isn't, we can just tell any budzinskis to prove brady never sported a large - problem solved!). the real beauty of this deal is that it doesn't matter one iota that there's already a ton of these ga "game issue" helmets in circulation. red flag? what red flag? heck, just look at the ocean of lebron shirts. i've hit gold....



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[zonker]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

i guess i may have been a little unclear of what my question was. if mears knew my jersey i bought wasn't a game issued or used with a a-5 rating. why was it even graded or given an a-5 rating?

[zonker]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

dave bushing: "..someone buying an A5 knows that at best , he has a perfect game style shirt with no verifiable provenance and at worst, they have a shirt that matches all of the proper tagging as found on a verified gamer but might not have a verified size or some of the special customizations i will have to say that this in not a true statement on a jersey receiving an A-5 rating. befor someone deletes my post about my comment on how i know this isn't a true statement. i have proof if the moderator's need to see. as far as why troy say's he noted on my l.o.o. pro-cut here's his responce: The debate between pro-cut and game issued is based on a few subtlties. A game issued jersey was one that was sent to the team. A pro cut was one that was manufactured for promotional purposed, and was direct marketed and not sent to the team. These terms have expanded in recent years as the leagues, teams, players marketing reps, etc, have access to jerseys and distribute them in non-traditional forms than in the past. When MEARS examines a jersey, and we specifically know the jersey was a pro-cut only, we designate it in our title. so my question to troy was how did he know that my jersey was pro-cut with verifiable use as not given to the jersey by the player? and since mine was not produced in recent years. mine is 13 yrs old. no response to my question as of now. i hope someone will clear-up my confusion and apparently everyone else's. i purchased all my jersey's with mears l.o.o. with the understanding the same as howard's! a-5 meant game used with no provinance to receive an higher grade. correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the point of mears grading system as written across the top of all there l.o.o. FINAL GRADE WITH RESPECT TO "CHARACTERISTICS" AND "GAME USE" ?

[hblakewolf]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

dave bushing: "..someone buying an A5 knows that at best , he has a perfect game style shirt with no verifiable provenance and at worst, they have a shirt that matches all of the proper tagging as found on a verified gamer but might not have a verified size or some of the special customizations"

so let's say you have 2 jerseys. one is the correct size and has the correct customizations. the other is not the correct size and does not have the correct customizations. both can receive an A5?

what's the point then? if howard wolf has a 1991 jordan jersey, properly sized at 46 with a correct +3" of extra length, and i have a 1991 jordan jersey sized at 52 with 0" of extra length, both of us will receive an A5? i'd be very happy and howard would be pissed because in MEARS' eyes, both of our shirts are equal.

rudy.

Rudy-

I can tell you that this thread has left me shaking my head. I was under the belief that a post 1987 MEARS A5 graded shirt indicated that the jersey in question was worn by the noted player-period. Deduct points for restoration, missing tags, etc. I'd be curious to know who on this Forum had a different understanding of the A5 grading on post 1987 jerseys? I understand that pre-1987 jerseys can obtain a perfect A10, and likewise, points deducted for restoration, etc.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

[kingjammy24]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

dave bushing: "..someone buying an A5 knows that at best , he has a perfect game style shirt with no verifiable provenance and at worst, they have a shirt that matches all of the proper tagging as found on a verified gamer but might not have a verified size or some of the special customizations"

so let's say you have 2 jerseys. one is the correct size and has the correct customizations. the other is not the correct size and does not have the correct customizations. both can receive an A5?

what's the point then? if howard wolf has a 1991 jordan jersey, properly sized at 46 with a correct +3" of extra length, and i have a 1991 jordan jersey sized at 52 with 0" of extra length, both of us will receive an A5? i'd be very happy and howard would be pissed because in MEARS' eyes, both of our shirts are equal.

rudy.

[josportsco]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

this is my exact point. Nice freak'n Lebron jerseys. It is criminal!! It is so frustrating and exhausting. Should the FBI look into this grading system that is obviously STUPID and does nothing except offer cut or issued jerseys as a jersey that comes with paperwork sold in a Game Used auction house. If something is labeled Game Jersey or Game Used Jersey in the title with paper work A5 etc. It basically give the notion that the jersey is used. Then you have to read the fine print on these COA's to find out: OH THIS JERSEY IS JUST A MODEL JERSEY WITH NO USE AND PROPER TAGGING. THAT IS WHY IT IS A5-7. This is so stupid. What needs to happen is get these authenticators/auction houses together and regulate this hobby. If you want to use a grading scale then A7 is the lowest.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

dave bushing: http://www.network54.com/Forum/47141...lebron+jerseys

"I think everyone would agree that MEARS makes the point of an A5 being properly tagged not for general retail use with no claim or proof that said shirt was ever within 100 miles of said player, simply that it is not a retail shirt."

i don't know what everyone else thinks. i think if you took 100 collectors who purchased A5 jerseys and asked them if they thought that the MEARS letter meant the item was likely a gamer, you'd find the results pretty surprising. i know that when a MEARS A5 comes to auction and the typical auction description thats that no post-1987 shirt can attain higher than an A5 without provenance, many may easily think that, sans provenance, everything else about it points to it being a likely gamer. if you look at robert's price list, would people really pay a couple thousand dollars for a jersey where the only implication was "simply that it is not a retail shirt"?

what would the prices be if every A5 stated "MEARS makes no claim that this shirt was ever within 100 miles of the player"?

maybe collectors are assuming too much but the fact is that a) MEARS can't even be consistent within its own ranks as to whether the size is correct or not and b) the A5 covers everything from gamers to procuts.

"Should MEARS be more specific and if the size cannot be verified, list as such in the worksheet and would this constitute an even lower than A5 grade."

yes, yes, and yes. if you didn't verify the size, why would you say you have? as troy publically stated, an A5 must have a verified and correct size. but apparently it doesn't.

"And once this lower grade is issued and a verified example surfaces that supports the once unsupportable size, then should all of the letters be amended?"

yes. afterall, isn't that the very nature of this hobby (new info regularly being uncovered) and already MEARS policy (buybacks, letter re-issuance)? what's the better alternative? to not verify a size, state you've verified it, and mislead collectors? isn't MEARS all about transparency? if you don't know something, then say you don't know it. it's certainly more damaging than possibly re-issuing some letters a few years later.

everyone in this hobby understands that new things are constantly being learnt and uncovered. in that way, it's similar to some sciences. at some point, people realized the earth isn't flat so they went and re-wrote the books. certainly better than refusing to admit the earth is round simply to avoid re-writing some books. you can evaluate an item and a year later learn new details which would cause you to change your opinion of that item. no big deal.

"I think the end goal for everyone is to make sure that someone buying an A5 knows that ..at worst, they have a shirt that matches all of the proper tagging as found on a verified gamer but might not have a verified size or some of the special customizations that might be found on a verified gamer.."

this completely contradicts troy's explanation of the A5. again:

"5. Correct size for player
...
10.We make sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player

All of these manufacturers characteristics must be present before the A5 grade is considered for post 1987 jerseys.

Therefore, if the examined jersey does not match 100% correctly with all of the above, no A5 grade is awarded."

dave, now you're saying that MEARS admits that A5 owners may indeed not have correctly sized or correctly customized jerseys. troy is saying one thing, you're saying another. yet collectors are supposed to understand the A5? the 2 MEARS principals can't even agree on it!

".. there needs to be clearer language to avoid such issues in the future."

yes. unfortunately, there've been massive amounts of A5s already sold.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

UDA/steve berg get in on the action: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220415701696

the UDA cert makes no mention of it being a "finals issued game jersey" and oddly, calls it a "customer inventory lebron james jersey". i have no clue what a "customer inventory" jersey is. is it a jersey that customer submitted to be signed by lebron?

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

my original point behind this thread was not to say that MEARS A5'd a retail shirt. it also wasn't to somehow assert that lebron never ever wore a 52. i have no way of knowing whether he ever did. rather, it was to point out that MEARS is telling customers that they verify sizes when in fact they do not. it creates a misleading impression for everyone. MEARS states that their intent is to give collectors the information they need to evalulate an item and decide for themselves. well, when MEARS states they've verified the size and they tell collectors this then collectors are going to believe it and take it into consideration in their evaluations. so when a 52+4 lebron A5 jersey pops up, collectors are going to think that MEARS has somehow verified that lebron did indeed wear 52+4s. truthfully, MEARS doesn't know if he ever did. troy points to the "fine print" of size variances but it contradicts his other statement that sizes are verified as being correct; that in order to earn an A5 the size must be correct.

here are a few a5 shirts that have sold at auction during the last three years which, according to mears i presume, were checked for size accuracy, etc... btw, doesn't a $1,400 average price seem somewhat high for a shirt that may have never seen a teams' locker room?



here's a look at some lebron jerseys that have sold at auction during the last three years. given "josportsco (jarrod?)" recent post, the sheer number of these jerseys is staggering, even if some in the list are the same shirts resold. and, of course, this list only includes a few auction outlets... how about that average price of $2,800? what do jersey-joe's shirts go for, $600?





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[mvandor]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

dave bushing has posted some comments on mearsonline.com regarding this entire issue. good to see dave reading and, in a roundabout way, participating in the forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/471414/thread/1242976484/last-1243352278/lebron+jerseys

"If the Pro Cut / Game issued shirts are identical to those worn by the players,.. how is MEARS, once submitted such a jersey with no story (substainable) as to how the shirt was obtained, supposed to make the call between pro cut and game issued since, for this excercise, are identical..".

the entire idea relies entirely on pro cuts and legit game-issues being identical. truthfully, i don't know if they are identical in every single aspect and in this particular case, since MEARS has never handled a meigray/NBA sourced lebron jersey, apparently they wouldn't know if they're identical to procuts either. i'm sure the issue differs across manufacturers and teams as well.

when a manufacturer makes a procut i'm inclined to think they know it's not going to be shipped to the player. this may result in differences from jerseys that they know are being shipped to teams.

"As to the size issue, one picture of a size 50 does not preclude a size bigger or smaller having never been issued."

it doesn't preclude it but it also doesn't verify it as being correct, which is exactly what MEARS claims is necessary for an A5. when troy detailed what was necessary for an A5, he didn't say "an acceptable range of sizes that the player may have possibly worn". he said the size had to be correct.

secondly, while i agree that it's possible james may have worn a 52, the proof of him wearing a 50 is hardly relegated to "one picture". barry meisel has accounted for 4 shirts from 3 separate seasons:

- 2005-06 regular season
- 2006-07 Hardwood Classics
- 2007 NBA Finals Game 3
- 2007-08 China Games

all of them a 50+2.

anyway, i agree with dave's overall sentiment that in some cases, differentiating between pro-cut and gamer can be very difficult. the thing is, i think saying that pro-cuts are completely identical (in every single aspect) to real game-issues is conjecture unless there's been an actual comparison done. i think the general notion of a procut varies too much across years, teams, players, and manufacturers to simply say that all procuts, from all sports, teams, manufacturers, etc are exactly like their game-issued counterparts.

my original point behind this thread was not to say that MEARS A5'd a retail shirt. it also wasn't to somehow assert that lebron never ever wore a 52. i have no way of knowing whether he ever did. rather, it was to point out that MEARS is telling customers that they verify sizes when in fact they do not. it creates a misleading impression for everyone. MEARS states that their intent is to give collectors the information they need to evalulate an item and decide for themselves. well, when MEARS states they've verified the size and they tell collectors this then collectors are going to believe it and take it into consideration in their evaluations. so when a 52+4 lebron A5 jersey pops up, collectors are going to think that MEARS has somehow verified that lebron did indeed wear 52+4s. truthfully, MEARS doesn't know if he ever did.
troy points to the "fine print" of size variances but it contradicts his other statement that sizes are verified as being correct; that in order to earn an A5 the size must be correct.

if i was purchasing a bat from dave bushing and i asked dave if he verified that the length was correct and he indicated he had, it would be a pretty serious problem if in fact he hadn't verified it. i think dave would agree with that.

rudy.

Some things in life are simple. Did MEARS have ONE pic of L.J. wearing a 52????

If not, they should have refused to authenticate under THEIR standards.

No?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

dave bushing has posted some comments on mearsonline.com regarding this entire issue. good to see dave reading and, in a roundabout way, participating in the forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/471414/thread/1242976484/last-1243352278/lebron+jerseys

"If the Pro Cut / Game issued shirts are identical to those worn by the players,.. how is MEARS, once submitted such a jersey with no story (substainable) as to how the shirt was obtained, supposed to make the call between pro cut and game issued since, for this excercise, are identical..".

the entire idea relies entirely on pro cuts and legit game-issues being identical. truthfully, i don't know if they are identical in every single aspect and in this particular case, since MEARS has never handled a meigray/NBA sourced lebron jersey, apparently they wouldn't know if they're identical to procuts either. i'm sure the issue differs across manufacturers and teams as well.

when a manufacturer makes a procut i'm inclined to think they know it's not going to be shipped to the player. this may result in differences from jerseys that they know are being shipped to teams.

"As to the size issue, one picture of a size 50 does not preclude a size bigger or smaller having never been issued."

it doesn't preclude it but it also doesn't verify it as being correct, which is exactly what MEARS claims is necessary for an A5. when troy detailed what was necessary for an A5, he didn't say "an acceptable range of sizes that the player may have possibly worn". he said the size had to be correct.

secondly, while i agree that it's possible james may have worn a 52, the proof of him wearing a 50 is hardly relegated to "one picture". barry meisel has accounted for 4 shirts from 3 separate seasons:

- 2005-06 regular season
- 2006-07 Hardwood Classics
- 2007 NBA Finals Game 3
- 2007-08 China Games

all of them a 50+2.

anyway, i agree with dave's overall sentiment that in some cases, differentiating between pro-cut and gamer can be very difficult. the thing is, i think saying that pro-cuts are completely identical (in every single aspect) to real game-issues is conjecture unless there's been an actual comparison done. i think the general notion of a procut varies too much across years, teams, players, and manufacturers to simply say that all procuts, from all sports, teams, manufacturers, etc are exactly like their game-issued counterparts.

my original point behind this thread was not to say that MEARS A5'd a retail shirt. it also wasn't to somehow assert that lebron never ever wore a 52. i have no way of knowing whether he ever did. rather, it was to point out that MEARS is telling customers that they verify sizes when in fact they do not. it creates a misleading impression for everyone. MEARS states that their intent is to give collectors the information they need to evalulate an item and decide for themselves. well, when MEARS states they've verified the size and they tell collectors this then collectors are going to believe it and take it into consideration in their evaluations. so when a 52+4 lebron A5 jersey pops up, collectors are going to think that MEARS has somehow verified that lebron did indeed wear 52+4s. truthfully, MEARS doesn't know if he ever did.
troy points to the "fine print" of size variances but it contradicts his other statement that sizes are verified as being correct; that in order to earn an A5 the size must be correct.

if i was purchasing a bat from dave bushing and i asked dave if he verified that the length was correct and he indicated he had, it would be a pretty serious problem if in fact he hadn't verified it. i think dave would agree with that.

rudy.

[nyjetsfan14]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

Their system is amazing...

Not sure what makes their "system" amazing? Because they issue a worksheet in addition to a letter? My previous post regarding my recent MEARS purchase of a Jets jersey should clearly show that the worksheet doesn't always mean much. That is no slight against anyone as nobody can be an expert in everything - but it was obvious not even minimal effort went into the worksheet or LOO I received with my piece. I did appreciate the company politely responding to my electronic mail, admitting mistakes/apologizing, and offering to make it right. That in itself can be a rarity these days. Happy collecting to all!

[aeneas01]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

it is interesting though that even a MEARS-admitted procut gets an A5, further solidifying the idea that there's nothing about an A5 that says the jersey was even anywhere near a stadium. it's a just a jersey that meets pro specs, aka a procut. why even bother authenticating a procut? it's not even worth the authentication fee. an A5 is the highest grade that a post-1987 jersey without provenance can achieve.

according to dave busing, awarding grades (and multi-signed authentication paperwork) to procut jerseys is not only important but it also represents a revolutionary approach introduced by mears to protect the collector. apparently before mears decided to roll up their sleeves and take charge, these sort of garments were being sold as game used. but that's no longer the case thanks to mears' post-'87 a5 grading system. of course one has to wonder why mears' simply doesn't pass on these things, i mean wouldn't that equate to a more deserving "grade"? as you say, what's to authenticate? hmm....

"...Prior to the defined grade of an A5, these very shirts were being sold as game worn jerseys, now they are being called out for what they really are, simply pro stock shirts with no mention anywhere of them ever having been game worn. Again, just my thought. I guess, if people are not comfortable with the basic A5 description , they are completely within their right to do so but I think calling a pro stock shirt out for what it really is, simply that, it is better than calling every shirt that is pro tagged a GAME WORN jersey which seems to have been the standard prior to the MEARS grade."

http://www.network54.com/Forum/471414/thread/1242976484/last-1243041419/lebron+jerseys

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[zonker]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

one thing i've always found confusing about the A5 is that on one hand mears states that they aren't saying the item was game-worn but they then go on to describe the wear. "exhibits wear..but we're not saying it was game-worn". brilliant. my guess is they don't want to go out on a limb and assert something was game-worn. they'd rather just say the jersey meets pro specs and show use. wherever that use came from is anyone's guess. they don't assume it wasn't by jordan and they don't assume it was by jordan. they just don't take any position on the matter at all.
that's just the thing, on mine they stated use consistent with player and position. answear: "no" so they took a position. right? and if you look on the work sheet it's not marked as either? i wish they would be more clear on there finding's and how they came to there conclusion or change there grading sysytem to just read and post 1987 jersey without team/player provenance can receive a 50/50 as we don't know. maybe it is or maybe it's not. i guess they would loose alot of customer's that way so i guess in there best interest they award an a5 wheather it's pro-cut (retail) or actually game used. issued to the team for the player, which is a true proffesionally cut jersey, for proffessional play , not retail. i guess there alot of money in confusion! i really appreciate your time rudy! thank's again

[kingjammy24]

Re: Lebron jersey - A5

"1) l.o.o states issued to team, then states pro-cut ? are they not differant?"

not literally issued to team. jersey specs consistent with team issuance. but not actually issued. confusing? yes.

"2) states properly tagged and sewn proffessionaly as all game issued for game use are, still "pro cut" designation."

pro cut = pro spec. the big question really is how they knew it was a pro cut.

"3) doesn't state what year was worn again pro-cut, but comment's state jersey exhibits light wear and signed on the back, but on the letter it also staes under "wear characteristics" evident use: light wear consitent with player: no (pro-cut) they state it show's use but assume it's not by jordan?"

one thing i've always found confusing about the A5 is that on one hand mears states that they aren't saying the item was game-worn but they then go on to describe the wear. "exhibits wear..but we're not saying it was game-worn". brilliant. my guess is they don't want to go out on a limb and assert something was game-worn. they'd rather just say the jersey meets pro specs and show use. wherever that use came from is anyone's guess. they don't assume it wasn't by jordan and they don't assume it was by jordan. they just don't take any position on the matter at all.

"they give an obvious 2003 all-star pro cut jersey on ebay right now an a-5 rating for game use with nothing to back it up from being a pro-cut, but claim mine to be pro-cut but mine is properly tagged ,sewn, font size, you name it in every way to a true jordan gamer and show's use and was signed by jordan himself. but mine get's the shaft on it's value? with the extra "pro-cut" designation on the top of the letter? sorry but, still very confused!!!!"

yes. like i said, the big question is why yours managed to get a special "pro cut" designation. i imagine the reality of it is that mears has authenticated dozens of procuts as A5s and not called any of them procuts so why did they call yours a procut? i don't know. only troy would know.

it is interesting though that even a MEARS-admitted procut gets an A5, further solidifying the idea that there's nothing about an A5 that says the jersey was even anywhere near a stadium. it's a just a jersey that meets pro specs, aka a procut. why even bother authenticating a procut? it's not even worth the authentication fee. an A5 is the highest grade that a post-1987 jersey without provenance can achieve. so let's say you've got 2 pujols jerseys for example; one of them you got directly from pujols after a game but have no proof whatsoever and the other came from jersey-joe and was sold as a $500 procut. both would receive an A5. MEARS, in a roundabout way, claims its hands are tied with this current wave of procuts insofar as them being unable to tell them apart from legit gamers. i can't be positive but i believe there are differences and MEARS just isn't looking hard enough. look at the lebron procuts vs gamers. the procuts were the wrong size. pretty big difference.

rudy.