New User - Steiner Complication

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

jlabadie88 please contact me directly at bcowan@steinersports.com or 914-307-1004. I'd like to discuss who at Steiner Sports gave you this information as it is incorrect. Without calling the rep out in an online forum I will say that any send in item should also get a Steiner Sports hologram in addition to the COA.

What a surprise.

NOT. See what a POOR authentication system leads to?

At least jlabadie88's product will be addressed, and that's commendable on Steiner's part.

Stay tuned. I'm going for some popcorn.........

[BCowan]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

I appreciate everyone's discussing this. The images of the item are attached. The item is from lot #342 of the most recent Goldin Auctions. Here's the link:

http://www.goldinauctions.com/2009_Derek_Jeter_Signed_Game_Used_World_Series_Bas-LOT12366.aspx

This is what I have so far. Through email communication, a Steiner representative has stated to me that based on a picture of the certificate and a look at lot #342 of Goldin Auctions, they claim this to be legitimate. Direct from the email, they also said:

"What likely happened is that the original owner of the ball got this baseball from MLB and then sent it to us to get Derek to sign it.
We don’t usually put a Steiner sticker on items for a send-in like that and we just give the COA to confirm we were there when Derek signed it."

I find this disconcerting, as I was under the impression they affixed the hologram to any and all items. But technically in this situation, I feel I can argue that this email correspondence has given me Steiner provenance. At the risk of sounding naïve, here are my thoughts. The ball has MLB authentication attesting to WS game use. While forgery is certainly a possibility, it seems unlikely to me. If the original owner purchased this ball from MLB auctions, they likely paid a decent amount for it and wouldn't gain a significant amount by applying a forged Jeter signature (2014 WS balls on MLB auctions are selling for over $1,000). Two, a Steiner hologram on the ball doesn't do much good now anyway, given the generic certificate.

Thoughts?

jlabadie88 please contact me directly at bcowan@steinersports.com or 914-307-1004. I'd like to discuss who at Steiner Sports gave you this information as it is incorrect. Without calling the rep out in an online forum I will say that any send in item should also get a Steiner Sports hologram in addition to the COA.

[cliffjmp33]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

Glad Steiner followed up. Ken has been good at responding on here too, but not sure if you reached out to him or any other Goldin Auction reps.

Nice addition though either way!

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

After seeing the ball, it's appears to be good.

It's an MLB authenticated game used World Series ball for sure. It was pitched by Philadelphia's Cliff Lee to Alex Rodriguez who fouled it back to the backstop in the 9th inning (Oct 28, 2009). A quick review shows this was game 1.

The signature looks good too. Yeah, it's likely all good. The signature card authenticates the signature on the ball and there is no reason to think anything is off here.

Today. With jlabadie88 sharing this with us.

But what about when the day comes he decides to sell it? How many potential buyers will "pull out" because there is no way of verifying THAT card goes with THAT ball?

Alone and in the current form these cards are offered, they represent a poor form of "authentication" for send-in signatures. There should be a photo taken of the item printed on the COA, or a hologram affixed to the ball that corresponds to a COA with a matching printed (or hologramed) code.

Short of that, these signature verification "cards" can end up authenticating all kinds of Derek Jeter signatures that aren't, if they get into the wrong hands.

Why accept a seriously flawed system we collectors don't want, one that compromises the value of the items we pay our hard-earned money for?

Because of this thread, if I ever find myself in the need of using Steiner for obtaining a signature, I will ask them beforehand to place a hologram on the item (in the place of my choice) to verify the signature, which they will have to agree to, or the business won't happen. A generic signature card doesn't work for me.

Chris

[jlabadie88]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

I appreciate everyone's discussing this. The images of the item are attached. The item is from lot #342 of the most recent Goldin Auctions. Here's the link:

http://www.goldinauctions.com/2009_Derek_Jeter_Signed_Game_Used_World_Series_Bas-LOT12366.aspx

This is what I have so far. Through email communication, a Steiner representative has stated to me that based on a picture of the certificate and a look at lot #342 of Goldin Auctions, they claim this to be legitimate. Direct from the email, they also said:

"What likely happened is that the original owner of the ball got this baseball from MLB and then sent it to us to get Derek to sign it.
We don’t usually put a Steiner sticker on items for a send-in like that and we just give the COA to confirm we were there when Derek signed it."

I find this disconcerting, as I was under the impression they affixed the hologram to any and all items. But technically in this situation, I feel I can argue that this email correspondence has given me Steiner provenance. At the risk of sounding naïve, here are my thoughts. The ball has MLB authentication attesting to WS game use. While forgery is certainly a possibility, it seems unlikely to me. If the original owner purchased this ball from MLB auctions, they likely paid a decent amount for it and wouldn't gain a significant amount by applying a forged Jeter signature (2014 WS balls on MLB auctions are selling for over $1,000). Two, a Steiner hologram on the ball doesn't do much good now anyway, given the generic certificate.

Thoughts?

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

Based on what I'm reading here, it appears the OP won an authentic WS game used ball for sure.

The signature, whatever it is, was apparently NOT signed in the presence of Steiner's representatives because a hologram was not affixed to the ball. That brings up three more possibilities.

Either the ball was signed and Steiner's rep simply goofed up the process by letting the ball slip out of their possession without a hologram affixed, or the authentic ball was signed by Jeter somewhere else and the seller chose to use a Steiner signature card from one of his Jeter signed items (maybe an inexpensive photo or batting glove or something of low value) and supplied the generic Steiner signature card with the W.S. signed ball in the hopes it would seriously jack up the value, especially in light of recent hammer prices Jete's stuff is going for.

The last possibility is the signature is bogus and the cert was supplied as a means to get rid of a forgery. I don't believe that is the case, but it is very much a possibility because of the flawed system of issuing generic signature cards. These cards can be used for other purposes, like this last possibility mentioned, because there is no direct "tie" to the item signed.

It's a flawed system everyone in the hobby simply needs to refuse to accept. Otherwise, you've got a situation like jlabadie88 has here. Not good.

[Wrigley2010]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

Steiner does issue holograms and cards for their send in items. You get a generic card back because they will authenticate the signature only, not the item (who knows if you are sending in a knockoff authentic jersey) so there will be nothing about the item exept "Derek Jeter Autograph" or "Derek Jeter Flat Autograph" or something along those lines.

If anyone has any questions for them, instead of everyone just adding more speculation, why not just reach out and ask.

No one here is questioning the generic cert. What is being questioned is a generic cert being issued for an autograph without a hologram to tie it to the item. Also, no one here is questioning the validity of the GU ball as it has an MLB holo. I'm sure every senior member on the forums here is aware Steiner doesn't authenticate GU items.

I see very little speculation here but I do see a lot of concerned collectors as there should be. As you can see the OP did reach out and "ask." This is why we are here questioning a process or lack there of.

Like I said before, this may be more of an auction house issue and less of a Steiner issue. Seems like the consensus here is that Steiner issues holograms with send in items. So who is the auction house that let a Steiner cert pass for authentication of an item without the Steiner holo?

[sctizzle]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

The ball wouldn't get the Steiner/NYY hologram though as mlb holograms all and sell themselves--they did not sell any direct through their partnership. So it would be correct not to have the 2 game used holograms.

[marino13]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

Will throw in my two cents since I deal a lot of Steiner send-ins.

1. I always get the hologram affixed to the item (at exact spot requested).

2. I do get "generic" cert here and there, but when I requested for specific -- that is what I get.

3. As for barcoded cert -- those were done mostly for in-store or online purpose only. Those are not for send-ins.


Now back to the OP's scenario --- which I find VERY strange to say the least.

1. A game used WS baseball (most likely to be '09 or earlier) - it would have at least TWO holograms attached already -- One from MLB and ONE from Steiner. It would also have a letter with matching hologram.

1A. Unless the ball is from the opponents - then it would not have the additional Steiner hologram and letter.

2. If you send in that particular WS game used ball to have Jeter signs it - it will get a hologram affixed to it unless there is one already there -- then they will just issued a plastic cert with it.

There is absolutely no reason for them to MISS or not placing the hologram right after it was signed by Jeter.


Unless the ball was part of the consignment auction on steiner behalf -- then that is another mess on it owns.

[Redcar23]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

I would consider that a generic Steiner cert.

One question that needs to be answered here is whether this is a Steiner issue or an auction house issue. Obviously, Steiner can not be responsible for one of their cert cards if an auction house allowed it as provenance for an item which was void of a hologram. Heck, I have a more Steiner cert cards than I can shake a stick at but I consider them useless if they do not accompany their designated autograph. Which auction house did you win this from?

Steiner does issue holograms and cards for their send in items. You get a generic card back because they will authenticate the signature only, not the item (who knows if you are sending in a knockoff authentic jersey) so there will be nothing about the item exept "Derek Jeter Autograph" or "Derek Jeter Flat Autograph" or something along those lines.

If anyone has any questions for them, instead of everyone just adding more speculation, why not just reach out and ask.

[Wrigley2010]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

I would consider that a generic Steiner cert.

One question that needs to be answered here is whether this is a Steiner issue or an auction house issue. Obviously, Steiner can not be responsible for one of their cert cards if an auction house allowed it as provenance for an item which was void of a hologram. Heck, I have a more Steiner cert cards than I can shake a stick at but I consider them useless if they do not accompany their designated autograph. Which auction house did you win this from?

[cliffjmp33]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

I should have been clearer in my reference to a generic COA card. I meant it was not like ones with a detailed barcode. It was just a typed name of the person like the one attached below.

[Phil316]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

Also for reference it is not unheard of people selling just the COA's from Steiner. If I recall a seller on ebay was selling large amounts of COA's from several MLB players.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=58268&highlight=Steiner+coa

So it can be done.

[Phil316]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

Couldn't agree more, Wrigley2010.

I keep saying this, and I'll say it until my end of days. If we as collectors ACCEPT these kind of practices as OK, then we will get what we deserve. A collection full of questionable second-rate stuff worth less than what we paid for it.

That's not my idea of a fun hobby. DEMAND better.

I wouldn't send ANYTHING to Steiner for a signature from any athlete because of their seriously flawed authentication system for "send-ins". I mean, what makes a "send-in" item any less authenticatable, with Steiner representatives present, than their own items they are having signed by the athlete???

They should handle BOTH in the same manner, and apply their sticker to the item sent in for signature, as BOTH (Steiner's own items and the send-in's) are being created in the same manner, under their supervision.

Chris

Very well said. Honestly I have used a couple different companies to send my item to get signed by certain players. I would never use Steiner for the reasons mentioned above.

Also contrary to what you may believe all you need is a team of great forgers to consistently pump out fakes. i wish I could name the company but cannot due to certain circumstances. Needless to say any person looking to fake an item even Jeters can do so.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: New User - Steiner Complication

Any send in I've done with Steiner has always gotten a Steiner hologram and Coa card.

If that's true, then I believe jlababie88 purchased something from Steiner that they acted as a third-party authenticator on. It would make sense that Steiner wouldn't apply their sticker on the Jeter ball if it wasn't signed in their presence, but would sell it with their generic authentication card if they believed the signature to be true.

Otherwise, the dang thing should have come with a sticker.