Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

I went back and re-read the emails from the time. Correction- I was offered the helmet (when it had the two bar mask) 6-20-05. I arranged to get my refund 8-8-05.
Eric

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Here is the addendum on the Winslow listing

Please Note: The images accompanying this description have been revised. When Mastro Auctions initially acquired the item, the facemask was inconsistent with the type actually used by Kellen Winslow. It has been replaced by the appropriate style of facemask, thus, the facemask accompanying the helmet is not original.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

For Eric I have been following this thread with some fascination, just out of curiosity,I would like to know what year, if you know, this helmet is supposed to be from. It seems to me that if it's from a season prior to 1985 the mask should have the older "thicker" bars rather than the RS (reverse strap)"thinner" bars version. If the helmet is supposed to be from 1985 forward then it should have the RS version of the facemask. If that's the case why did it take 2 years to find something that's a stock item?

Lon-

Nice to hear from you. Interested in what you think about this thread.

Kellen retired in 87, so I dated it between '85 and '87 because of the block numbers on the back of the helmet (the Chargers switched from yellow numbers to block numbers on the back of the helmet in '85) Winslow went to the bulky 3 bar facemask in '84.
Eric

[lon lewis]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

For Eric I have been following this thread with some fascination, just out of curiosity,I would like to know what year, if you know, this helmet is supposed to be from. It seems to me that if it's from a season prior to 1985 the mask should have the older "thicker" bars rather than the RS (reverse strap)"thinner" bars version. If the helmet is supposed to be from 1985 forward then it should have the RS version of the facemask. If that's the case why did it take 2 years to find something that's a stock item?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

"To be honest, I wasn't at all aware that their was a problem with an auction house selling its own memorabilia."

for the same reason an authenticator isn't supposed to authenticate items they own, an auction house shouldn't offer items they own. (people point to john taube but i don't believe taube actually grades the bats he sells. at least that's what he told me when i asked him to grade a bat i bought from him). judging by their behavior you'd think the auction houses weren't aware it's a problem either. my guess is they know it is and simply don't care. ethics don't come cheap. must be a sweet deal to be a seller who can dump his items into his own auction house and also conveniently employ the authenticator looking at your item. surprising that lou positively authenticated his bosses' item. couldn't see that one coming. i wonder if the president of mastro has the ability to see the the bid maximums on his item?

"what is the difference from changing the appearance of a helmet vs a bat or jersey? where is the line drawn?"

maybe the line isn't drawn at all. after all, mastro publically states they "aren't dealers" and feel that dealers "putting items they own into their own auctions is a unreconcilable conflict of interest" yet they do it anyway. by the president no less! it's one thing to have a low level employee secretly subverting company policies but if the guy at the top is publically doing it, then you can just imagine what a stellar example he's setting for the rest of the employees. additionally, mastro allows its employees to bid on items. what a wonderful situation doug has set up - mastro owned items, in a mastro auction, being bid on by mastro employees. thumbs up doug! what a level playing field that is.
mastro could've kept it all fair by simply choosing to consign the helmet to AMI, GFC, Lelands, etc as a private consigner. apparently, they thought it better to keep it in-house thereby making their own policies nothing but meaningless drivel.

eric, something still doesn't make sense:

"When it became apparent that the facemask was incorrect, Doug requested the replacement be found. He said this was a lengthy search, as it took almost 2 years. He said the switch was entered into their system with "notes to 're-shoot' the photo and 'document the replacement mask.'" and those requests were not followed through. They are making attempts to fix those things now."

doug allen realized the facemask was wrong almost 2 yrs ago but lampson wrote an loa on it for doug within the last 2 months and his loa made no mention of the facemask issue. if doug knew the facemask was bad almost 2 years ago, then why does lampson's loa fail to mention this?
it has nothing to do with the replacement mask and new photos. lou's loa/description isn't a year old. it was maybe 2 months old. doug KNEW the facemask issue existed 2 months ago when he gave the helmet to lou. whether he found a replacement or not, the description should've stated the facemask issue. doug knew about it when he consigned it and yet the info didn't show up.

"His response was that he has been "transparent as to what has transpired as it relates to the helmet" and that I have all of the information. I should use that information to decide whether or not to bid."

how very forthcoming. whenever encountering questionable items or practices, i've always loved the "don't like it? don't bid" explanation. right up there with "don't bother me" and "i'm an expert".

rudy.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Couple of exchanges with Doug Allen this morning. He has been very quick to get back to me, so i thank him for that.

In the first email he described that his firm (Mastro) acquired the winslow helmet as part of the Duke Hott collection.

When it became apparent that the facemask was incorrect, Doug requested the replacement be found. He said this was a lengthy search, as it took almost 2 years.

He said the switch was entered into their system with "notes to 're-shoot' the photo and 'document the replacement mask.'" and those requests were not followed through. They are making attempts to fix those things now.

I responded with this question:

Doug

You said your firm (Mastro) acquired the helmet as part of the Duke Hott collection. So that means you have a financial stake in this helmet, correct?

Thanks
Eric

His response was that he has been "transparent as to what has transpired as it relates to the helmet" and that I have all of the information. I should use that information to decide whether or not to bid.

That's the update.
Eric

[reed1216]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

I can't wait to one day see a Lampson LOA that states, "The jersey displays solid authenticator wear from multiple inspections. Final grade GU- 9.5"

[jonincleve]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

does this mean the auction house can give lou lampson a game issued bat and he can go out in the field and do some hitting? or take a game issued jersey and do a head first slide into some dirt? the possibilities are endless. what is the difference from changing the appearance of a helmet vs a bat or jersey? where is the line drawn?

[staindsox]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

I had a terrible experience with Mastro. I sold a Thompson Honus Wagner print through them. They did a terrible job listing the item and ended up allowing bids to be retracted. I could have eBayed the item for more money. Their incompetence cost me a lot of money. I was furious, but what can I do? I will never deal with them again. After my experience, I thought they came off as dishonest and bumbling.

Chris

[reed1216]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Just for the record, I sold Mastronet an uncut 1948 Leaf Boxing set last year, which was sold in one of their more recent auctions (the most recent one if I'm not mistaken). I would be happy to provide the exact listing number, but I haven't figured out how to access their archives, if they have one.

I was strongly encouraged to consign the item, but I needed the funds to do some home repairs, prior to selling my last home and didn't want to wait until the slow season to put my home on the market after the auction concluded. That would have to be an obvious instance where the auction house sold one of their own pieces because it was theirs when I received payment from them.

With that said, they were more than professional with me during the transaction. They covered all the shipping fees for me to send it to them. Moreover, they paid a very fair price for it. If my memory serves me, I rec'd about $7,500 for it and it sold for just over $10K in their auction. They also were careful to inspect the piece, prior to purchasing it. It was framed and they informed me that they would have to remove it from the frame to inspect the condition of the sheet. If I'm not mistaken, it was listed and sold unframed, but all of that was done well before it was ever listed in their catalog or online.

To be honest, I wasn't at all aware that their was a problem with an auction house selling its own memorabilia. While that was the first time I sold an item that was later auctioned to Mastro, I have sold several things to Grey Flannel, which were subsequently auctioned off. I have consigned items to them as well, but initially I sold them. I got a lot wiser after watching a 1977 game worn Reggie Jackson helmet, with a LOA from Michael Grosbardt (team photographer) go for around $13K, after selling it to them for a small fraction of that.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

i'm genuinely interested in whether or not the helmet belongs to a mastro employee. their own policy seems to prohibit consignments from their employees. of course, in the same breath they also state "all qualified bidders in good standing are eligible to bid on any lot in the auction, including employees and executives of Mastro Auctions, Inc.". to me, allowing doug allen and brian marren to compete against private collectors on mastro auctions seems to be a huge "unreconcilable conflict of interest".

ever wonder why the fine print in almost every contest states "employees of XX company and/or their relatives are prohibited from entering..". it's because you can't have the people running the contest also competing to win the prizes. it's a bewildering decision to let the people who have access to the bid records and auction software compete with people who don't. why do you think lottery employees are prohibited from playing the lottery? practically every lottery has fine print that reads "All employees and members of their immediate family, regardless of where they live, are prohibited-by-law from playing..". it's same thing in an auction.
you're supposed to running an impartial auction and yet you let your own employees (the same ones who administer the auction software, who can see everyone elses bids and their maximums, and who record all of the bids and results) compete against people who don't have access to that info. how completely fair! it's like watching a hurdle race between a 2-legged runner and 1-legged runner. plus, once you allow your employees to bid, then that opens the whole "shill bidding" can of worms.

anyway, eric, you stated that allen said the current photos and current loa/description were mistakenly used. if it was a mistake are they saying that they've got another lampson loa with a 3-bar description that was written prior to the auction starting?

i wonder how they're going to deal with the current bidders. retracting bids is not allowed on their auctions. should be interesting.

"What I don't get is, once it got bounced from the auction house back to Mastro, how could Lou write a letter on it if he knew the 2 bar facemask was bad?"

lou wrote the original letter on it when it was offered to you. you mentioned the facemask issue. it now has another, more recent lampson letter on it that fails to mention the facemask issue. either lampson forgot or he didn't care. consider the fact that this is the same man who, knowing that the 94 elway throwback was only used in 1 game, proceeded to write multiple loas on multiple versions of it. 2 of them within several weeks time of each other! how often do you see a 94 elway throwback? you'd think you'd remember if it was only weeks apart. sort of shatters the "he forgot" explanation and lends more weight to the "he didn't care" one.

rudy.

[yankees159]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Mr. Allen Can you please let me know why this happened? I've spent thousands of dollars with your company and would like to find out why something like this could happen? This is alarming and makes me wonder why I should continue to participate in your auctions.

Thank you.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Again, the people I was talking to at Mastro didn't know that Doug Allen had asked Lou to switch out the facemask.

Doug said it wasn't properly noted, which was a miscommunication and caused the wrong photos and description to be listed on the site.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

"If I had to guess, I'd say Doug Allen is the consignor and asked Lou to switch out the facemask."

eric, here's what mastro says:

"Mastro Auctions is a consignment auction house. Many auctions are run by dealers offering material they own. And in addition to offering an infinitely inferior service, these auctions expose consignors to numerous unreconcilable conflicts of interest."

if mastro feels that running items owned by the auction house owners is an "unreconcilable conflict of interest" then it's difficult to think they'd engage in such activities. given his education and vocation as a cpa, i'd wager doug's taken a class or two in ethics and as such knows that these sorts of activities are a no-no.

the thing is, lou's very hard to get a hold of. his contact info isn't given to the average outside consigner. if the consigner wasn't related to mastro, then you'd think it'd be difficult for them to contact lou to tell him to change the facemask. if they did want to contact lou, then they'd likely have to do it by passing a message to him via mastro in which case mastro would be aware of the request. they were not. however, mastro apparently doesn't believe in allowing employees to consign items. lou, of course, wouldn't alter someone's item without being asked. so when you put all 3 together, it's all very bizarre. if mastro is truly a "pure consignment house", then the consigner would be an outsider. as an outsider, how did he contact lou without going through mastro? strange stuff.

rudy.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Please clarify Eric. It was Mastro who asked Lou to find them a new facemask?

Thanks,
Dave

Yes, look at the last post on page 2 of this thread where I describe Doug Allen's voicemail. He explains that he asked Lou to replace the facemask since they all determined it was bad (despite the fact that the auction listing says it's good and comes with a lou lampson loa)