Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

[CollectGU]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Please clarify Eric. It was Mastro who asked Lou to find them a new facemask?

Thanks,
Dave

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

- initially, mastro didn't know that the facemask was changed. they even said the 2-bar and 3-bar mask were the same. the change hadn't even occurred to them. once made aware, they had to "investigate" what happened. this seems to indicate that they weren't the ones who initiated or requested the change nor were they even aware that it had occurred.

- it was then either the consigner or lou who took the initiative and neither of them told mastro.

rudy.

I think Doug Allen knew, but the people I was talking to didn't know. That's why they were as suprised as I was that it didn't match what was described...

If I had to guess, I'd say Doug Allen is the consignor and asked Lou to switch out the facemask. I don't know why it didn't occur to him that it then wouldn't match what''s in the auction catalog.

Also, I don't understand how they could list it as the 2 bar helmet and leave it there getting bids saying it's geniune, and then switch the facemask.

An uninformed person pointed the finger at lampson. He works for the auction house. Apparently if the auction house asks him to replace the facemask, he does it. Allen said he asked Lampson to make the change.

The new facemask will be mentioned on the Mostro listing tomorrow.

Also, here's why I think Allen is the consignor.

I was originally offered this helmet by an auction house who traded Mastro a HOF game used jersey for it. They offered it to me as being a gem from the Duke Hott collection signed off by Lou. Two of the biggest names in the hobby. They wanted $5500 for it. I looked at the helmet and didn't like the facemask on that era helmet, so I bounced it back to the auction house, who eventually could not match the helmet style and facemask (1985-87) in a photo, so they bounced it back to Mastro for credit. Apparently, Mastro has had the helmet for a year. If Mastro was making trades, doesn't it seem plausible that it's their piece? I don't know, maybe I'm making one too many assumptions.

What I don't get is, once it got bounced from the auction house back to Mastro, how could Lou write a letter on it if he knew the 2 bar facemask was bad?

I'll just email him. Oh wait....

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

- initially, mastro didn't know that the facemask was changed. they even said the 2-bar and 3-bar mask were the same. the change hadn't even occurred to them. once made aware, they had to "investigate" what happened. this seems to indicate that they weren't the ones who initiated or requested the change nor were they even aware that it had occurred.

- it was then either the consigner or lou who took the initiative and neither of them told mastro.

- mastro said it was lou who changed the facemask.

- the facemask change occurred after the helmet arrived in mastro's possession, after mastro took the pics and after lou wrote the loa.

- they said lou has no financial interest in the helmet.

it would be insane to think lou could've changed the facemask without letting the consigner know beforehand. (it's apparent he didn't let mastro know until after he did it).

all of this begs the question of why? if lou realized, after the fact, that the facemask was incorrect why would he even care to change it? he's already authenticated it, he's been paid for the authentication and yet wants to change the facemask for some reason? why? there's a complete lack of motive. who paid for/obtained the new facemask?

it's one of the most bizarre things i've heard in this hobby. sorry but i don't believe lou was sitting around, having completed his work and been paid, and suddenly, without telling the auction house, decided to see if he could dig up and apply a 3-bar facemask to a helmet that didn't belong to him and that was already in mid-auction.
the only story that seems plausible to me is that the consigner realized the issue after they had submitted it and asked lou to see if he could change the facemask. given that the pics and description were already online for a 2-bar mask i don't really see the point.

very, very strange. lou has no motive for changing the mask yet was purportedly the one to do it. mastro had no clue he did it. so you've gone a rogue authenticator changing items without informing the auction house and the best scenario is a consigner with a weak motive? maybe the consigner is a mastro employee? after all, if lou's not the consigner, can't change it without the consigner's consent, and the helmet was in mastro's possession the whole time....

something tells me i'd never make it on Law & Order.

rudy.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

I have been told by Doug Allen that Lou doesn't now, nor has he ever had a financial interest in the winslow helmet.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

None of this by the way explains why everyone was fine with the helmet and facemask when it was offered to me a year ago for $5500!!!!, and it wasn't until I determined there was a problem, that there was a problem.

Now of course everyone is saying they determined the facemask was bad. I did the research on it when everyone was talking about the great provenance and authenticator and saw that something wasn't right...

Eric

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Justin listened to the voicemail.

Doug Allen says they got the Winslow from the Duke Hott collection. They determined the facemask was incorrect and he and Mastro, based on the fact that the facemask was incorrect for what Winslow wore during this time period, asked Lampson to go find a vintage-style facemask similar to what Winslow would have worn.

Allen said that request was not documented properly and the wrong photos and description were put on the site.

He says the proper one will be put on, noting that it's a vintage-style facemask and not the game used original.

He admits there were miscommunications and was quite apologetic.

Eric

[sammy]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Why the surprise here?

Mastro's has gone South every since Bill sold the company.

They started using Lampson to save money and sell very questionable items, and jacked their rape to 20 percent.

I don't even bother looking at their junk anymore.

I'll stay with Robert Edwards Auctions, as they are one of the very few left in this business that haven't sold their soul and reputation for the mighty greenback.

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

New photos are up showing a 3 bar facemask.

I wrote them back and asked if Mr. Lampson switched the facemask out with the permission of the consignor? Or perhaps is her the consignor?

I also asked if it was switched with a game used facemask of Winslow's?

Mastro also said that there will be "a modification note" on the website.

I just got an email saying Doug Allen has left me a voicemail, so I'll see what that's about.

This doesn't explain why the authenticator would switch out a facemask on something because it was the wrong facemask and why the auction house had photographed the wrong one.
Eric

[staindsox]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

This is a serious fraud. I am not a lawyer, so if someone is, please chime in, but begally speaking, I don't think anyone could even do anything about it unless they were the one to have purchased it. Any volunteers?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

as it currently stands, all pics show a 2-bar mask. the loa/description mentions a 2-bar mask. (apparently lou realized the mask was wrong and replaced it after he "authenticated" it?) there's no mention whatsoever of a 3-bar mask anywhere. it's likely that the bidders are basing their decisions on the pics and the description; ie: a 2-bar mask. boy is the winner going to be surprised when they get that helmet in the mail and see a 3-bar mask.

rudy.

[RobSteinmetz]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Eric,

Does Mastro see anything wrong with Lou's decision to swap out the face mask? How do they plan to proceed?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

"4) According to Mastro, since it was determined the facemask was wrong, Mr. Lampson "found the correct mask to replace it with"



had you not engaged them, would anyone know the facemask was a replacement? apparently mastro didn't even know at first. the description makes no mention of a restored facemask.

if lou authenticates a jersey and finds the tagging is wrong, does he replace it with the correct tagging?

frightening lou, frightening.

rudy.

[otismalibu]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

That's beyond pathetic.

Someone needs a Pacman-type suspension.

I wonder how often Lou has to "find the correct tag to replace it with".

[Eric]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

Here's the official word from Mastro

1) The helmet is from the Duke Hott collection. It came in over a year ago.

(Note- this is what was told to me when I was offered the helmet last year and rejected it because the facemask was wrong)

2) The helmet was photographed prior to authentication taking place

(Note- yesterday i was told that the information in the item description describing a two bar mask was the same info on the authentication letter)

3) Lou Lampson looked at the helmet and said the shell was correct for Kellen Winslow but the mask was incorrect.

(Note- this isn't exactly the case. For the record, when I was offered the helmet the emails, which I still have, say Lou looked at it and it's a good helmet. The only reason he determined that the mask was incorrect is because that was my reason for rejecting the helmet.)

Specifically Lampson said "a very good Winslow representation.It’s a 1985-86 era. All original with triple color number 80 identifiers on the back of the helmet. Nice wear throughout, gold facemask."

4) According to Mastro, since it was determined the facemask was wrong, Mr. Lampson "found the correct mask to replace it with"

(Note- I didn't know you could do that)
Eric

[kingjammy24]

Re: Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

why a "helmet expert"? you're not so much disputing the legitimacy of the facemask as much as simply saying it literally changed overnight.
all they need is someone with a) the gift the eyesight b) the cognitive ability to tell the difference between 2 bars and 3 bars. they need a "helmet expert" to tell them that one picture has 2 bars and the other picture has 3 bars? what are they..unionized?

rudy.