Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

[aeneas01]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

mvandor - i feel like i'm always giving you bad news...

imo the chances are slim to none that your helmet ever saw the inside of the 49ers lockerroom. for one, i certainly don't trust the source (ga) - further, i feel that if ga thought for a moment they had their hands on an authentic montana helmet, an authentic montana helmet with strong provenance that would pass authentication mustard, i sincerely doubt they would sell it with a letter that minced words by referring to it as a "game issue" lid (notice how ga and the like never use the term "game issued").

the facemask clips are incorrect for that era (89-92), the exterior paint job looks far too new, the warning label appears off (not wide enough) and too new as well and the "sf" decal placement is incorrect. also, the thin transparent border of the "sf" decals on your helmet (if this is what i'm seeing your photos) is inconsistent with the authentic decals used by the 49ers which were cut to color.

also, i'm not sure montana ever wore an nfl shield on his lid while with the niners even though they were introduced before he left the team and even though many of his teammates wore them. i noticed that steve young's helmet was also sans the nfl shield during montana's last year in sf as well...

fwiw, the fact that your helmet is an impregnated yellow shell that was painted gold is a plus given that this was standard practice when it came to the niners and other teams that painted their shells gold (i.e. using a yellow shell as the base). yet, having said this, it's impossible to tell from a photo if your helmet is even painted the same gold as the niners used during that era - you would really need to compare your helmet to an authentic one in person to be certain of this.

but, again imo, i think you have a very nice piece of memorabilia in your montana helmet which i'm sure displays very well. further, if you ever decide to move over to the dark side, i'm sure you could come up with a creative story of provenance, easily earn a loa and sell it as an authentic game issued montana lid.

here are some very suspect (imo) game issued / worn montana helmets that have sold at auction in the last few years...

lelands 12/02 - sold for $2700



lelands 05/03 - sold for $2000



lelands 12/03 - sold for $1600



ebay 09/07 - ended at $165 without reserve being met



closeup of authentic niners decal from that era...




a couple of notes - the lids pictured above that sold at lelands on 12/02 (for $2700) and 12/03 (for $1600) are the same lid. if you look closely, it also appears that this lid is an impregnated navy shell painted gold. hmm...

[mvandor]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Have you catalogued any pics of what you feel is a legit Montana lid by any chance?

I have a great 8x10 closeup of Montana in this type of helmet to compare to, and I see your point on the clips and the sticker placement (too far from the upper front chinstrap snap). The leather jaw pads are visible in the pic and are on my helmet which is a plus - most of the ones in your pic set lack those and some have what appear to be an incorrect facemask, mine appears to be a match. Concur exterior paint color is tough to photo match. On the inside my helmet shows it's been around, outside it looks like it was just reconditioned, it's perfect.

Stickers though, ARE cut to color. As for the NFL shield, I can't find a pic on Getty for the 91-92 season that shows that area. Any photo sources you can suggest other than Getty?

I have serious doubts as well as to whether this traces back anywhere near the 49ers locker room, or if it does, whether it really was assigned to Montana. But if it's a knockoff it's a very good one. Actual clips from 20 years ago may have required replacement, and from my photo check, the 49ers weren't anal about sticker placement, I've noted quite a bit of variance in angle for example in just a few minutes on Getty.

But I do appreciate your analysis, it confirms some aspects and casts doubt on others. Thank you, my friend. Bad news isn't good, but the truth IS the truth.

[aeneas01]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

"Have you catalogued any pics of what you feel is a legit Montana lid by any chance?"

if you mean a photo of one sold at auction, then the answer is no mvandor - frankly i would think an authentic montana helmet with sound provenance would fetch at least $10k-$15k at auction instead of the relatively low $1k-$3k that those i pictured went for. i also believe that these lids were recognized as shaky and therefore sold for such realtively low amounts.

how many authentic montana 49er lids have made it to auction in the last 10 years - not many, if any, imo. and how many authentic montana 49er lids were ever in existence? 4, less? imo an authentic montana 49er lid is an extremely rare item.

also, and fwiw, i don't believe in "game issued" helmets - i think this term is nonsense and has been cultivated by dealers to give the false impression that there are more rare helmets in circulation than actually are. cultivated in order to convince buyers that it's plausible that hall of famer helmets are frequently available.

actually, imo, you realy don't even have to speak to an equipment manager to understand just how silly the notion of 1-2 "game issue" (backup) helmets per player is. let's take ray lewis for example - he wears a riddell vsr4, most likely large, which is the same helmet and size that at least 50% of the ravens wear. now what would make most sense - have 1-2 large vsr4 helmets on hand for each player in case all of their helmets failed at the same time or have 10 or so large vsr4 helmets in stock ready to be decaled for a player when needed?

I have a great 8x10 closeup of Montana in this type of helmet to compare to, and I see your point on the clips and the sticker placement (too far from the upper front chinstrap snap). The leather jaw pads are visible in the pic and are on my helmet which is a plus - most of the ones in your pic set lack those and some have what appear to be an incorrect facemask, mine appears to be a match. Concur exterior paint color is tough to photo match. On the inside my helmet shows it's been around, outside it looks like it was just reconditioned, it's perfect.

the niners switched to the black outlined "sf" letters in 1988 so your helmet is a reproduction of what montana wore from '88-'92 before he went to the chiefs. like the impregnated yellow shell, the leather jaw pads on your helmet are a nice addition. however, your jaw pads appear to be unused and also appear to be smaller than what montana wore - yours look like riddell mediums 3/8" or smaller. interestingly, like montana, brett favre also chose to wear leather jaw pads long after most other players had switched to plastic/vinyl.

"Stickers though, ARE cut to color. As for the NFL shield, I can't find a pic on Getty for the 91-92 season that shows that area. Any photo sources you can suggest other than Getty?"

corbis, wire image, sports illustrated, sportsattic2.com...

"I have serious doubts as well as to whether this traces back anywhere near the 49ers locker room, or if it does, whether it really was assigned to Montana. But if it's a knockoff it's a very good one. Actual clips from 20 years ago may have required replacement, and from my photo check, the 49ers weren't anal about sticker placement, I've noted quite a bit of variance in angle for example in just a few minutes on Getty."

montana wore a very common helmet that is extremely easy to reproduce - all components are readily available today including yellow impregnated schutt pro air shells. i agree that your helmet is a nice reproduction but, i hate to say, it's a reproduction that can be easily pieced together. but, fwiw, the facemask clips montana used during this time aren't rare and you could probably pick some up easily on ebay if you keep your eyes open or contact ebayers that sell facemasks, etc. - the vintage gray schutt facemask clips are rare because they became brittle over time and disintegrated. but the facemask clips that montana used during that era were indestructible and therefore still around.

here are some photos of joe during his final season with the niners - he only played 1 game...

[mvandor]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Interestingly, I see what appears to be the NFL shield in the pic of him blowing on his hand you posted.

I have to give some credit to whomever put this together. If I changed the clips and found slightly larger leather jawpads, I'd be good to go.

As always thank you for your detailed look at this. The authentication biz could use you to be sure.

[aeneas01]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Interestingly, I see what appears to be the NFL shield in the pic of him blowing on his hand you posted.

yeah, that does appear to be an nfl shield! what's interesting about montana's final years with the niners (91/92-92/93) is that it coincided with the introduction of two new helmet decals - the nfl shield and an american flag honoring the gulf war soldiers. but apparently these decals were issued by the league (unlike the other helmet decals which teams obtained directly from the their decal source) and often in quantities too small to keep up with demand. as such, it wasn't uncommon in 1991-1992 to see teams with some players sporting these decals and others that didn't. montana and young are two good examples, two players that can be seen without these decals...

I have to give some credit to whomever put this together. If I changed the clips and found slightly larger leather jawpads, I'd be good to go.

you would really be good to go if a) your lid's manufacturing date code jived with the time period in question and b) your lid sported a couple of "special" decals on the inside! as far as the date code is concerned, look at the inside of your lid below one of the earholes - there should be a machine stamped series of seven numbers that may or may not be followed by a letter or two. also look at the top of your helmet for any white decals with info on them - you wll need to remove the padding for this.

let me know what you find...

[mvandor]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

There is a number code far below one earhole reading 013210HL - I see no obvious date code stamped by any earhole.

Under the padding is a sticker "warranty voided if removed with the word AIR and a number B JA SN 4705407.

The jaw pads appear to be medium, show some sign of use as does the shell interior. The interior padding looks brand new as does the exterior shell and facemask, and clips.

[aeneas01]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

There is a number code far below one earhole reading 013210HL - I see no obvious date code stamped by any earhole.

Under the padding is a sticker "warranty voided if removed with the word AIR and a number B JA SN 4705407.

The jaw pads appear to be medium, show some sign of use as does the shell interior. The interior padding looks brand new as does the exterior shell and facemask, and clips.

well, unfortunately, it looks like your helmet did't roll off schutt's assembly line until roughly 10 years after montana last wore a niners lid...

your helmet has two dates as follows a) the machine engraved series of numbers and letters appearing below the earhole you mentioned (this date indicates when the shell was molded as well as other molding information) and b) the letters appearing before the serial number on the decal (this date indicates when the shell was actually made into a helmet complete with drill holes, padding, etc. - this date can often be up to 6 months later than the shell molding date). here's the breakdown of these date codes...

shell molding date code (machine engraved series of numbers and letters below the earhole on the inside of the helmet):

- the first number stands for the type of plastic used in the molding process. 0 = polycarbonate which is used for adult helmets. youth helmets are made of a different plastic (abs) and would have a different number in this place. riddell also uses a polycarbonate (kra-lite ll) for their adult helmets and abs for their youth helmets. so yours is an adult lid made of polycarbonate.

- the second number indicates the work shift in which the shell was molded; there are 3 work shifts. so your lid was molded during the first work shift.

- the next three numbers represent the day of the year (julian) the helmet was molded. in your case it was the 321st day of the year which would be november 15th or 16th depending on leap year.

- the last number represents the year the helmet was molded - in your case the "0" indicates the year 2000. the reason we know that the "0" doesn't represent 1990, 1980 or 1970 is because it is followed by the letter "h".

- the first letter, in your case an "h", indicates where the shell was manufactured. the "h" stands for in-house. a "p", for example, would indicate that the shell was molded at an outside source (in the case of a "p" it would mean that it was molded at pulsar plastics). these letters also help in determining what year the last number in the series represents - for example, a "0" followed by a "p" would indicate that the shell date was 1990 given that schutt started in-house molding ("h") in the mid-'90s. it can be confusing.

- and, finally, the second letter indicates the helmet's size; in your case the "L" indicates a large helmet. the second letter can also help in determining what year the final number in the series represents - for example, schutt didn't begin adding the second letter until the late '90s.

- in short, the shell of your helmet was molded of polycarbonate during the first shift of thurday november 16th, 2000 at the schutt factory and is a size large.

manufacturing date code (three letters appearing on the serial number decal):

- the first of the three letters indicates the month the helmet was manufactured (when the shell was actually turned into a complete helmet), a= jan, b = feb, c = mar, etc... the next two letters indicate the year. consequently the letters appearing on your helmet's sn decal (b ja) translate into 2/01 or february 2001. so your shell was manufactured into a complete helmet 4 months after it was molded...

[aeneas01]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

btw, do you think lampson even bothers to look at helmet date codes when he gives them his big thumbs up? i'll tell ya one thing, i would bet a gazillion cannolies that the date code on that wilson which sold as a "game used sayers" lid for $22,000 wouldn't come close to the year sayers actually wore that type of helmet...

[mvandor]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Well, my bubbles burst on my "game issued" helmets some time ago. The price of my education across several of them (money paid above honest reproduction market value) is several hundred clams easily.

Once again, I very much appreciate your taking the time to address my collection. As I said before, better to know the truth so I don't perpetuate the falsehoods when I go to sell my collection someday.

[aeneas01]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

As I said before, better to know the truth so I don't perpetuate the falsehoods when I go to sell my collection someday.

what you've also said before, which is absolutely correct, is that you have some very, very nice reproductions that you don't see every day; especially as far as their attention to detail is concerned. and while in your estimation you believe that you probably overpaid for these reproductions, take solace in the fact that you didn't drop $1k-$2k per as did the buyers that purchased the above pictured montana lids. and if that's not enough, take even more solace in the fact that you didn't drop $22k for a $50 wilson shell adorned with a $15 set of chicago bears decals!

[helmets]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

aeneas01:

A bit new here, but not new to the hobby. I have a couple questions for you as I have been reading your posts.

GA has what they are selling as a Barry Sanders rookie helmet. Everything to me looks legit, however the royal shell is throwing me for a loop. I was wondering your opinion on this helmet, as I own a helmet that is identical to the GA helmet in every way, and I mean EVERY way. I called Danny J, the Lions EM at the time, and he does not recall any royal shells in the 7 3/8 WD-1 shells, or any model of helmet. I tried to PM you or email you and keep it off of the board, but I don't have your email address.

In addition, thanks for the info on the serial number of the shell molding. I have what I consider to be a Montana gamer. I checked the serial number per your explanation, and although it doesn't have the H or P, the last number is 8 which I assume is '88. The mask and clips are '90.

Let me know what you think.

[mvandor]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

aeneas01:

A bit new here, but not new to the hobby. I have a couple questions for you as I have been reading your posts.

GA has what they are selling as a Barry Sanders rookie helmet. Everything to me looks legit, however the royal shell is throwing me for a loop. I was wondering your opinion on this helmet, as I own a helmet that is identical to the GA helmet in every way, and I mean EVERY way. I called Danny J, the Lions EM at the time, and he does not recall any royal shells in the 7 3/8 WD-1 shells, or any model of helmet. I tried to PM you or email you and keep it off of the board, but I don't have your email address.

In addition, thanks for the info on the serial number of the shell molding. I have what I consider to be a Montana gamer. I checked the serial number per your explanation, and although it doesn't have the H or P, the last number is 8 which I assume is '88. The mask and clips are '90.

Let me know what you think.

Will be interested to see what aeneas has to say. While Joe at GA insists on playing loose with the term "game issue" to describe some of his custom helmets, I do not see him as someone that would misrepresent an item as "game used" that wasn't. He's had that up for over a year that I'm aware of, but at $18,500 no takers. It also comes with a signed letter from Sanders.

[helmets]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Yes, I have tracked it for most of the time that it has been listed. I know it comes with the letter, but we all know examples of where the letter doesn't mean much...

[aeneas01]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

aeneas01:

A bit new here, but not new to the hobby. I have a couple questions for you as I have been reading your posts.

GA has what they are selling as a Barry Sanders rookie helmet. Everything to me looks legit, however the royal shell is throwing me for a loop. I was wondering your opinion on this helmet, as I own a helmet that is identical to the GA helmet in every way, and I mean EVERY way. I called Danny J, the Lions EM at the time, and he does not recall any royal shells in the 7 3/8 WD-1 shells, or any model of helmet. I tried to PM you or email you and keep it off of the board, but I don't have your email address.

In addition, thanks for the info on the serial number of the shell molding. I have what I consider to be a Montana gamer. I checked the serial number per your explanation, and although it doesn't have the H or P, the last number is 8 which I assume is '88. The mask and clips are '90.

Let me know what you think.

man, it seems as if ga has been selling that lid forever - as far as my thoughts are concerned, let's just say that i think it has a ton of problems. frankly, i see no evidence that this lid ever belonged to sanders (regardless of the letter) nor am i convinced that it even originated from the lions' lockerroom. as you mentioned, the royal blue shell is a huge problem - so much so that i would rule it out based on that alone. but there's more.....

1. what's up with the facemask? it appears to have been painted blue - those aren't paint transfers appearing on the mask.

2. it's obviously not sanders' rookie helmet that was retired after the 1989 season - the seller does mention something about it being sanders' rookie helmet that was reconditioned and possibly worn during the 1990 season. the reason it couldn't be his retired rookie helmet is because a) the side lion decals didn't have a transparent trim in 1989 and b) the lions didn't use a lions decal to cover the riddell logo on the back of the helmet in 1989 either.

3. from what i can tell the dyno name tape is applied incorrectly (see photos below) - it appears that the lions' equipment manager applied the dyno tape sp that the player's name read from top to bottom; ga's lid has it reversed. btw, it looks like the lions only used the dyno tape from 1986-1991.

4. the warning label doesn't look right to me - compare it with the authentic warning labels pictured below.

5. no all-american shield?

6. i'm not sure i understand the seller's casual mention of 1991 clps....

anyway, as you can probably tell, i'm not very impressed with this helmet - obviously the seller is counting on the letter.


a look at at the lions' 1989 side decal compared to ga's (bottom right):




a look at the lions dyno tape placement and warning label - compare these to ga's:




a look at ga's $18,500 lid compared to one that sold for $3,500 not too long ago:

[Made in Motown]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Wow! That logo is just awful. Look at the white outline (rounded in the game pictures, not cut to follow the outline of the Lion) and the extra "wave" in the tail.