Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

[mvandor]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Seller indicates helmet was in service through both 1989 and 1990 so for photo comparative purposes, we should look at photos close to the time the lid left circulation, late in the 1990 season or even early 1991 - it would seem to me - given the face clip date.

Looking at circa 1990 shots (and seller indicates helmet was in use in 1990) the Lion's symbol DID have a clear outline around it around that time, unlike 1989. See shot 1 below. Unfortunately, Getty has no specific 1990 dated shots that show much. A Nov. 1991 dated shot DOES show the clear outline on the decal. Could the helmet have been retired early 1991, perhaps pre-season, explaining the clips?



The rear of Sanders helmet in 90 seemed to lack the NFL shield but bears the bumper decal circa 1990 - shot 2 below.



Aeneas, your own pics show some dymo tape on the left some on the ight, so there were inconsistencies in how it was applied, so I'm not sure we can make a major flag out of that.

Not arguing with anyone, just adding some info to the discussion. Perhaps other photo databases would be more helpful than Getty on this one.

[helmets]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Aeneas:

I appreciate the feedback. I bought the one that you show for the $3500.00 price. The history is, the seller whom I talked to on the phone, owns a book store. One of his best customers comes in and wants him to list some of his items that have been in storage on ebay. He originally listed listed 6-7 helmets as well as a Walter Peyton and Bubba Smith jersey. They were all listed as game worn. They brought huge prices. I stayed away due to the poor photos. About 4 weeks later, the seller relisted the helmets as not game worn. Again I called him to get the story. The prices were significantly lower. I bought the Sanders and others, as I felt I could not go wrong at the prices. Part of what sold me was the Dymo tape and the numbers. Living in the Detroit area, I have seen many Lions Gamers. In addition, I have been making "custom" helmets since 1995 for collectors, and there features on this helmet that I have not seen on anything but gamers.

When I got the helmet, I was surprised by the features. I then saw the helmet on ebay from GA, and it almost looked like the same helmet. 99% of it was the same. The only differences being the marks on the GA mask, and the orientation of the dymo tape.

The only stickler in my opinion, - as I have the Lions actual decals - with the extra "wave" and the clear boarder - was the royal shell.

I placed a call to Danny J, and he immediately asked me where I got the helmet, etc, and kind of seemed a bit pissed. After about a 10 minute discussion, he said that he "...did not recall any royal shells, but that didn't mean that there weren't any." He wanted to look at the helmet, and I have not taken it up to him yet.

On the helmet, the WD-1 is correct, all of the date codes are correct. The size is correct, mask is correct, date codes of the mask are correct. etc. To me, it is not a rookie helmet, but has the same recon sticker in it that the GA one has. NFL shield came in 1991 on the helmets.

On another note, I bought a Sterling Sharpe helmet from the same seller. I am a Packer fan, and have a couple gamers. Again the features of this helmet and the date codes match up perfectly with a Sharpe gamer. The mask was incorrect. I took the helmet to Red Batty on December 29th and met with him. He stated that he was almost certain that it was Sharpe's helmet. He said prior to '93 when he arrived, the Packers traded their helmets back to Bertran's (sp) and also lost helmets while reconditioning. He said he has tightened things up so no helmets leave.

The meeting with Batty only added a bit of mystery to the Sanders helmet...

[helmets]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

I have been looking for a photo of Sanders with his helmet off - showing the inside and the color of the shell. The only ones I find are from later years. Need those photos from '89-91 or '92

[mvandor]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Who's Danny J?

[Eric]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Don't know the year, but is this anything?

[helmets]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Who's Danny J?

Danny Jaroshewich was the Lions EM during the 80's. He spent 28 years with the Lions, and then was fired by Matt Millen. I heard he works for the Lions now in the Security Dept at Ford Field.

[DrJ]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

The numerals on back are "clear square" variety, which appears correct for the time period. If you look, it appears that blue paint is exposed under the "2" numeral - how do you get hit marks or scratches under a sticker like that? Just wondering for my future collecting if anyone knows how that could have happened...seems like the silver paint would have been protected under a sticker like that.

[aeneas01]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

I appreciate the feedback. I bought the one that you show for the $3500.00 price.

when you said that you had an identical one i thought you might be the guy that purchased it....

The history is, the seller whom I talked to on the phone, owns a book store. One of his best customers comes in and wants him to list some of his items that have been in storage on ebay. He originally listed listed 6-7 helmets as well as a Walter Peyton and Bubba Smith jersey. They were all listed as game worn. They brought huge prices. I stayed away due to the poor photos. About 4 weeks later, the seller relisted the helmets as not game worn.

i'm not sure that i understand you - you said that "they brought huge prices" and then say that the seller relisted them. do you mean that he originally listed them with "huge" starting prices and they didn't sell?

Again I called him to get the story. The prices were significantly lower. I bought the Sanders and others, as I felt I could not go wrong at the prices. Part of what sold me was the Dymo tape and the numbers. Living in the Detroit area, I have seen many Lions Gamers. In addition, I have been making "custom" helmets since 1995 for collectors, and there features on this helmet that I have not seen on anything but gamers.

When I got the helmet, I was surprised by the features. I then saw the helmet on ebay from GA, and it almost looked like the same helmet. 99% of it was the same. The only differences being the marks on the GA mask, and the orientation of the dymo tape.

those don't appear to be "marks" on the ga lid - it appears that a black or navy facemask was painted blue. as far as ga's lid looking like yours, i agree - as a matter of fact it looks like someone used your lid as a template for the ga lid.

The only stickler in my opinion, - as I have the Lions actual decals - with the extra "wave" and the clear boarder - was the royal shell.

i wasn't suggesting that the lions never used the transparent trimmed decals such as the ones that appear on ga's lid or your lid - they certainly did use these type of decals, before and after the cut-to-ink decals used during sanders' rookie year (which they only used a few seasons). the royal blue shell is a big hurdle imo.

I placed a call to Danny J, and he immediately asked me where I got the helmet, etc, and kind of seemed a bit pissed. After about a 10 minute discussion, he said that he "...did not recall any royal shells, but that didn't mean that there weren't any." He wanted to look at the helmet, and I have not taken it up to him yet.

On the helmet, the WD-1 is correct, all of the date codes are correct. The size is correct, mask is correct, date codes of the mask are correct. etc. To me, it is not a rookie helmet, but has the same recon sticker in it that the GA one has. NFL shield came in 1991 on the helmets.

which helmet are you talking about here - yours or ga's? have you asked ga what the date of their helmet is? what's the date code on your helmet? as far as the nfl shield is concerned, i wasn't referring to the nfl dceal on the exterior of the helmet - i was referring to the all-american reconditioning shield/decal on the interior of the helmet....

On another note, I bought a Sterling Sharpe helmet from the same seller. I am a Packer fan, and have a couple gamers. Again the features of this helmet and the date codes match up perfectly with a Sharpe gamer. The mask was incorrect. I took the helmet to Red Batty on December 29th and met with him. He stated that he was almost certain that it was Sharpe's helmet. He said prior to '93 when he arrived, the Packers traded their helmets back to Bertran's (sp) and also lost helmets while reconditioning. He said he has tightened things up so no helmets leave.

The meeting with Batty only added a bit of mystery to the Sanders helmet...

batty is a great guy and extremely helpful....


here are a few photos of the inside of bs's lid (nothing for 89-90)...



a few shots of the lions' warning label during that period - not the same as ga....

[helmets]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Great photos.

Yes, the date code on the helmet is '84, which seems a bit older to me than it should be, however it is only 5 years older than his rookie year. Date on the mask is '92 as is the dates on the clips.

Yes, the helmets sold originally in February, and then at the end of April, I was surprised to see them listed again. The description stated that they were originally sold as Game Used, but after some people contacted him and questioned whether or not they were game used, he relisted them as "not" game used. He started them out at $5 each with no reserve. I did not see the two jerseys relisted, so he must have felt comfortable with the sale on them. He relisted the helmets all at the same time, so a snake in the weeds like myself was not able to bid at the last second on all of them without the aid of some sort of sniper software. They went so cheap the second time around, I wish I would have bought them all, but I waited until the last second to bid.

[mvandor]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Great photos.

Yes, the date code on the helmet is '84, which seems a bit older to me than it should be, however it is only 5 years older than his rookie year. Date on the mask is '92 as is the dates on the clips.

Yes, the helmets sold originally in February, and then at the end of April, I was surprised to see them listed again. The description stated that they were originally sold as Game Used, but after some people contacted him and questioned whether or not they were game used, he relisted them as "not" game used. He started them out at $5 each with no reserve. I did not see the two jerseys relisted, so he must have felt comfortable with the sale on them. He relisted the helmets all at the same time, so a snake in the weeds like myself was not able to bid at the last second on all of them without the aid of some sort of sniper software. They went so cheap the second time around, I wish I would have bought them all, but I waited until the last second to bid.

Were the Lions so cheap as to start a prized first round draft pick out with a 5 year old lid???

[helmets]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

It is not a question of cost. It is what the player likes, and what feels comfortable and what fits. Favre wore up until he retired an ancient WD-1 helmet that Riddell has not made in 6-8 years. Brady still wears an XL helmet that came off of the old Max Pro mold, with padding that is at least 6 years old. Brendan Shannahan wears shoulder pads that he wore as a junior that are held together with tape. If you go to Green Bay for training camp, the rookies always have used helmets that have been refurbished. Under the paint, they are all gouged up.

Not defending the helmet, just stating that cost is not the only factor.

[aeneas01]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

Yes, the date code on the helmet is '84, which seems a bit older to me than it should be, however it is only 5 years older than his rookie year. Date on the mask is '92 as is the dates on the clips.

while anything is possible, never used old/new inventory on hand in the equipment room for example, the notion that sanders was issued an '84 lid in '89 is tough to swallow imho. further, given the decals on the helmet, it's even tougher to believe that sanders was sporting an '84 lid into the '90 or even '91 season. wd lids were hugely popular during that era; the lions used them quite a bit. as such, i can't imagine that new wd inventory wasn't readily available to incoming players - especially if you happened to be the team's number 1 pick and that year's heisman trophy winner. but, again, anything is possible such as a royal blue shell - possible, but not likely.

btw did you ever get the date code from ga's lid?

Yes, the helmets sold originally in February, and then at the end of April, I was surprised to see them listed again. The description stated that they were originally sold as Game Used, but after some people contacted him and questioned whether or not they were game used, he relisted them as "not" game used. He started them out at $5 each with no reserve. I did not see the two jerseys relisted, so he must have felt comfortable with the sale on them. He relisted the helmets all at the same time, so a snake in the weeds like myself was not able to bid at the last second on all of them without the aid of some sort of sniper software. They went so cheap the second time around, I wish I would have bought them all, but I waited until the last second to bid.

i think i remember those auctions - do you happen to recall what helmets were listed and who the ebayer was? i want to see if i have them in my photo database. if i remember correctly i contacted the seller because there was something goofy going on with his lids...

[John in KY]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

It is not a question of cost. It is what the player likes, and what feels comfortable and what fits. Favre wore up until he retired an ancient WD-1 helmet that Riddell has not made in 6-8 years. Brady still wears an XL helmet that came off of the old Max Pro mold, with padding that is at least 6 years old. Brendan Shannahan wears shoulder pads that he wore as a junior that are held together with tape. If you go to Green Bay for training camp, the rookies always have used helmets that have been refurbished. Under the paint, they are all gouged up.

Not defending the helmet, just stating that cost is not the only factor.

Just because Riddell didn't have the WD-1 on their website or in their catalog it doesn't mean that they still couldn't assemble one for Favre at any point in time - hell, if Helmet Hut hasn't bought them they probably still have suspensions back in their warehouse. It wouldn't be a stretch for them to have padding for more recent helmetslike the PAC-3, WD-1, and Micro-Fit/M-155 air/liquid pads hanging around.

My question is this - a 1984 WD-1 shell wouldn't have a "modern" Riddell rear snubber, would it? I don't think they added them to the WD-1 and AF-2 until the VSR-1 and VSR-3 had been out for a while. I suppose one could be added, but all I remember from the PAC-3/early WD-1 era were the rear "rolled" pads that didn't have any graphics on them.

[helmets]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

The WD-1's that were produced in the late 80's and early 90's had a removeable rear "modern" bumper. It fit over the square cells of the rear padding. It is longer than the rear bumper of the VSR series helmets as shown on these Sanders helmets. That is how you know that Favre still wears a WD-1 helmet. His bumper is much longer than the VSR helmets, and his bumper decal "PACKERS" does not reach the far ends of the bumper - the same as the Lions bumper decals on these helmets. In the early 2000's Riddell combined the VSR and the WD1 and called it a WD2. It had the rear padding configuration of the VSR and the sides of a WD1. Many people think that Favre wore a WD2, but that simply is not true due to the length of the rear bumpers and the plastic rivets that can be seen holding his rear padding into the helmet.

Yes, Riddell may have some additional padding and could possibly custom build a helmet for a star, but typically, Riddell wants the NFL "Star" players to wear their newest helmet to get younger players to wear that same helmet, ie. Manning with a Revo. Typically a good equipment manager will "squirrel" away helmets and parts that are known to be discontinued. I had read where the Pats EM ordered 500 VSR4 helmets a few years back when Riddell changed the inside padding to the more stiff type from the softer pads.

[John in KY]

Re: Radtke Sports, Gridiron Authentics...

The WD-1's that were produced in the late 80's and early 90's had a removeable rear "modern" bumper. It fit over the square cells of the rear padding. It is longer than the rear bumper of the VSR series helmets as shown on these Sanders helmets. That is how you know that Favre still wears a WD-1 helmet. His bumper is much longer than the VSR helmets, and his bumper decal "PACKERS" does not reach the far ends of the bumper - the same as the Lions bumper decals on these helmets. In the early 2000's Riddell combined the VSR and the WD1 and called it a WD2. It had the rear padding configuration of the VSR and the sides of a WD1. Many people think that Favre wore a WD2, but that simply is not true due to the length of the rear bumpers and the plastic rivets that can be seen holding his rear padding into the helmet.

Yes, Riddell may have some additional padding and could possibly custom build a helmet for a star, but typically, Riddell wants the NFL "Star" players to wear their newest helmet to get younger players to wear that same helmet, ie. Manning with a Revo. Typically a good equipment manager will "squirrel" away helmets and parts that are known to be discontinued. I had read where the Pats EM ordered 500 VSR4 helmets a few years back when Riddell changed the inside padding to the more stiff type from the softer pads.

All true; I was assuming a helmet with an internal date of 1984 would have predated the WD-1 and AF-2 having the longer rear bumper by at least a year or two, but based on your description it would have been easy to add one of the modern bumpers; I was only familiar with the old "rolled-style" add-ons that dated back to the PAC-3 days (the PAC-3 was the helmet of choice in my high school days).

I wasn't aware of the Pats ordering older VSR-4s for the padding; great info. And everyone's heard the story of the Bears being down only one or two unused Wilson helmets for Walter Peyton at the time he retired. Things like that keep an equipment manager on their toes.

I also know Riddell doesn't throw stuff away - I remember circa 1991-92 Riddell put out "throwback" helmets (like a white original Cowboys or a white-horn Rams) for sale at the mall jersey stores that had PAC-3 padding and the early-70s all caps "Riddell" logo on the wildcat sweatband. Of course they also used those USFL-era facemasks on them as well, but they did have the correct clear-covered PAC-3/WD-1 air cells that hadn't been seen for the prior 4-5 years.