1994 Bills Throwback Question

[sixburgh]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Hello, for quite a few years now I have been admiring many of you guys' collections and soaking up info when I can but other than a handful of exceptions, I mostly stick to retail authentics and team issued jerseys so I can rarely contribute.

However, in this case, I thought some of you may be interested in seeing my '94 Bears jersey after reading Samets' very informative posts early in this thread.
This is a Shaun Gayle I acquired from the parents of Shaun's long term girlfriend, Rhoni, (you may be familiar with that unfortunate story) that he had given to them.
Although the sleeves suggest it was not meant for use on field, the extra length and correct font seem to also rule it out as being the kind sold at retail according to the 2nd page of the thread.




Although the Steelers '94 TBTC is a grail of mine (seemingly unattainable, please help), I always loved the look and construction of the Bears jerseys from that season.
That, combined with the fact that Walter Payton and the '85 team made me fall in love with football and Gayle being the only member of that defense still in CHI in '94 makes this one of my favorites.
I'm already excited to see what teams pull out of the archives for the 2019 100th ann. season.

I also had a question regarding the '91 Falcons Champion jerseys.
Were the identifiers screen printed or heat pressed?
I thought screened but saw a Favre rookie (GF auction, I believe) that said vinyl was used.

Mark? Anyone?

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Good looking jerseys!!
Thanks for sharing!
Excellent Falcons info too, and what a great time back then. Just all these little things like you mentioned keep you on your toes and provide other things to hunt and learn. There isnt much of that now days with Nike and all lol.

If you dont know, I'm not sure I'll ever find out. At some point I'd imagine things went away from the local sports store as it was back in the day.

As I said, coming pre #'d would make sense and explain some things but conversely, if thats the case, then it would also greatly expand whats considered 'team' issued.

Regardless, your falcons post provides the icing on the cake to this thread and i appreciate it.
There is very little to none as far as info on Bills throwbacks are concerned and googling brings one here. Hopefully the info you guys posted will help the next person trying to learn and understand how it worked with the Bills and other teams. Weird stuff.... but SUPER fun!!!

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

ya, seriously great stuff guys - both of you!

The very last thing I'd like to ask you guys (and i assume it just got lost in my barrage of questions)....


Were numbers done in house for your respective teams? I know the bears used champion and I think the Falcons did too (91ish?)
Bears were sewn so it might be different. But I'd think to keep the 'champion font' correct and consistent the jerseys would come already numbered.

I don't know if the Falcons did the numbers in-house. They used Russell from 1975 through 1996 with the exception of the 1991 season when they used Champion and the 1990 pre-season when they wore black Champion jerseys before going back to Russell for the regular season. The #81 jersey below is from the 1990 pre-season, and the #85 jersey is from the 1991 regular season (tail was hemmed, so the tags are missing).

To confuse matters a bit, in the 1990 pre-season, several players wore the same number in the early preseason due to the size of the roster. Where players wore the same number, it appears that one wore Champion and the other wore Russell. I stumbled onto this when I wound up with a Russell jersey of #73-Oliver Barnett that showed game use. He and offensive lineman Reggie Redding both wore #73 in the preseason. Barnett ended up wearing #72 in the regular season while #73 was assigned to Redding who ended up not dressing for a regular season game until the following season. Ironically, at one point I also had a white jersey assigned to Redding for the 1990 regular season.

On a side note, the Falcons names were always sewn onto the plate dating back to 1970 (when names were first placed on the back of their jerseys) except for the above mentioned Champion jerseys.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Ok, makes sense.
I know the Bills are blanks now as well.
To me, that's interesting for screen printed teams....
I wonder how champion made sure all the numbers were uniform and the correct font. It didn't occur to me (but it's painfully obvious) that the Bears never partook in that don't as they have always had their unique number thing going on - which is the coolest font going imo.

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

My understanding is that all Bears jerseys even now are purchased as blanks in requested sizes.

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

ya, seriously great stuff guys - both of you!

I've found some really interesting stuff via search (the young 94 for a boat trade was my favorite) where some of this was mentioned in bits and pieces.
Sorry for anything you guys had to repeat - but even though this shied away from Bills stuff its still GREAT info and very good to know.

The very last thing I'd like to ask you guys (and i assume it just got lost in my barrage of questions)....


Were numbers done in house for your respective teams? I know the bears used champion and I think the Falcons did too (91ish?)
Bears were sewn so it might be different. But I'd think to keep the 'champion font' correct and consistent the jerseys would come already numbered.


depending on what you guys think - either way it explains things and opens more questions at the same time.


Thanks again for the help!!!

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Thanks for sharing all of the great information about the Bears throwbacks and the photos. It's really scary to see how close the high end team shop jerseys are to the game-worn jerseys. The information you provided about the Favre throwbacks is also very valuable as it explains how so many got out into the hobby.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

Anytime!.

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

As far as the Favre throwbacks are concerned...
There are about three dozen known out there in the hobby. Top-notch forgeries which had been introduced to the market by... the Green Bay Packers.
In 1998, Grey Flannel Auctions contracted with the Packers for the club to provide custom jerseys for an auction. The Packers took thirty-six unused jerseys supplied to the team by Ripon Athletic, but not actually issued by the team to any player, and "re-purposed" them with Favre numbers and nameplates.
I borrowed that from the Green Bay Packers Uniform Database. Read the whole story here!

From what I've gathered myself and other collectors...

Logo Athletic seemed to have made the t-shirts and low end jerseys. Some even had the 1994 75th anniversary patch. Then you stepped up to the Nike's offerings. I've seen a few variations of them. On the higher end ones, Nike had the players name sewn directly to the back of the Jersey. You can see it in the Butler I showed above and the Zorich below.

Champion jerseys were only available through mail order or teams pro shop. I'm not sure how this whole thing worked but there are jerseys of players with straight sleeves (more retail and casual wear or QB cut at the time) and some that are cuffed correctly (game wear for most players). Maybe they had multiple tiers? Maybe these were team blank leftovers and you bought based on size you wanted and received whatever they had left? I don't know...

As you can imagine, the devil is in the detail. For whatever reason, the numbers done by the pro shop (mail order/retail) seem to be slightly off sized and placed differently then what the team seamstress did... I bet the seamstress had a template that was followed and the ones doing the retail side were done with close enough mentality... I've also included some side by sides of Pro shop versions next to the actual gamer.

Thanks for sharing all of the great information about the Bears throwbacks and the photos. It's really scary to see how close the high end team shop jerseys are to the game-worn jerseys. The information you provided about the Favre throwbacks is also very valuable as it explains how so many got out into the hobby.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

as always, great info...

I wonder why SD had to go w/Russell, especially as your list shows that (and we had discussed GB) starter was willing make throwbacks!

The Chargers used Russell in 1993, so perhaps they had already made arrangements to have Russell make the throwbacks before deciding to switch to Starter. Maybe a Chargers collector on here can shed more light on this.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Sorry for the confusion. I was about as clear as mud in that explanation. That's what happens when I start writing essays after midnight!

To clarify, the Hall of Fame Game I was referencing was played in 1994 (July 30). The Falcons wore their red throwback jerseys in that game and again on September 18 in a regular season game at home against the Chiefs. They wore their white throwbacks in Washington the following week (September 25).

As for the rack of Jeff George jerseys that I saw in the Falcons equipment room in the spring of 1995, those were regular season white road jerseys intended for use in the 1995 season. The main reason the equipment manager was showing me the jerseys is that the Falcons had made a slight change to their white jerseys for the upcoming 1995 season (added a black trim to the collar).

As for different suppliers providing the throwbacks, the only team that I am aware of that used a different supplier for its throwbacks was San Diego. The regular season jerseys were Starter and the throwbacks were Russell. Here are the teams I am familiar with and can positively identify the suppliers:

Atlanta - Russell
Buffalo - Champion
Chicago - Champion
Dallas - Apex
Denver - Wilson
Detroit - Apex (their non-throwback jerseys worn in the first part of the season were Wilson as they didn't start wearing the Apex jerseys until later.)
Green Bay - Starter
Kansas City - Wilson
Los Angeles Rams - Russell
Miami - Wilson
Oakland - Starter
Philadelphia - Russell
Pittsburgh - Starter
New Orleans - Champion
New York Giants - Apex
New York Jets - Champion
San Diego - Russell on throwbacks and Starter for non-throwbacks
San Francisco - Wilson
Seattle - Wilson
Washington - Starter

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

as always, great info...

I wonder why SD had to go w/Russell, especially as your list shows that (and we had discussed GB) starter was willing make throwbacks!

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Amazing pics!!
Crazy LA AND Nike got involved on the throwback train.
IMO, neither look even close to as nice as the Champion ones though.
It looks like a lot went into making those as well w all the pieces etc.
So, maybe this was done differently bc the Bears had sewn numbers but for reg season stuff, do you know what the normal protocol was for jerseys getting numbered? We're the already done upon arrival? Or blank and then numbered by the team?
I think the Jets had gone to sewn numbers by then... maybe the Bengals too? Off the top of my head I can't recall another team using screened number champion jerseys at the time. If there was, maybe an expert from THAT team would know if the screened ones showed up already done to maintain the Champion font.
I know the Bills were one of the last if not THE last to use screened numbers. After the Champion 87 port hole mesh set, all remaining champion and the sprinkled in Apex were screened until 97 when they went to WILSON, followed by logo athletic, puma and finally Reebok. After a few years of red white and blue screen print jerseys they changed to those hideous dark blue ones and brought in sewn numbers. The fact that each of the brand changes prior to that and after champion had different fonts as each company had a different style would lead me to guess they came to the team already #d... but again. I have no idea.

Anywho, thanks again for sharing those cool pics. I'm not a Bears guy but it's really fun and pretty neat to learn about stuff I had no idea about. Again, just amazes me the Bears were so far ahead of their time with this!

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Also, I've always kinda wondered about the non M&N 'issued/game cut' Favre and Elways out there. Were these just mass produced retail versions or at the time did the team just make a bunch that were sold similar to the Bears story?

As far as the Favre throwbacks are concerned...
There are about three dozen known out there in the hobby. Top-notch forgeries which had been introduced to the market by... the Green Bay Packers.
In 1998, Grey Flannel Auctions contracted with the Packers for the club to provide custom jerseys for an auction. The Packers took thirty-six unused jerseys supplied to the team by Ripon Athletic, but not actually issued by the team to any player, and "re-purposed" them with Favre numbers and nameplates.
I borrowed that from the Green Bay Packers Uniform Database. Read the whole story here!

Its REALLY neat that the Bears offered T shirts and different level replica/authentic for purchase. That said, I'm surprised you dont come across these more often if they were avbl for public/retail purchase. What were the small differences between the store and the game jerseys? were the lower level Champion jerseys as well? Very cool the Bears had the foresight to offer something like that as now its a given (and maybe even done FOR the prospect of sales) but back then it obv wasnt taken advantage to its fullest potential for a marketing/sales standpoint. Oddly, that 6 on the kicker jersey looks like an upside-down 9. That was the one you said was a retail, right?

Champion really knew how to make a jersey. The detail and how that appears to be made is REALLY cool. As was the double tagging - tagging done right! Bills jerseys from these years didnt seem to have double tags if it was a mid season order, were Bears done that way too?

From what I've gathered myself and other collectors...

Logo Athletic seemed to have made the t-shirts and low end jerseys. Some even had the 1994 75th anniversary patch. Then you stepped up to the Nike's offerings. I've seen a few variations of them. On the higher end ones, Nike had the players name sewn directly to the back of the Jersey. You can see it in the Butler I showed above and the Zorich below.

Champion jerseys were only available through mail order or teams pro shop. I'm not sure how this whole thing worked but there are jerseys of players with straight sleeves (more retail and casual wear or QB cut at the time) and some that are cuffed correctly (game wear for most players). Maybe they had multiple tiers? Maybe these were team blank leftovers and you bought based on size you wanted and received whatever they had left? I don't know...

As you can imagine, the devil is in the detail. For whatever reason, the numbers done by the pro shop (mail order/retail) seem to be slightly off sized and placed differently then what the team seamstress did... I bet the seamstress had a template that was followed and the ones doing the retail side were done with close enough mentality... I've also included some side by sides of Pro shop versions next to the actual gamer.

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Mark, one thing i didnt follow was the Falcons used their throwbacks again for the hall of fame game the following season in 95? Was this an all new set then? Obviously the roster wouldnt be the same and it would be heavily expanded if that game took place in the spring back then as it does now. That seems like a LOT of extra Falcons throwbacks out there so that makes me think I misunderstood you.

The rack of whites you saw, were they all throwback George? or if a year later, just all regular white George that were made for charity/sale etc.

I think I read here some teams had to have a different supplier for the throwback sets? Was there ever a reason or theory as to why this took place?

Sorry for the confusion. I was about as clear as mud in that explanation. That's what happens when I start writing essays after midnight!

To clarify, the Hall of Fame Game I was referencing was played in 1994 (July 30). The Falcons wore their red throwback jerseys in that game and again on September 18 in a regular season game at home against the Chiefs. They wore their white throwbacks in Washington the following week (September 25).

As for the rack of Jeff George jerseys that I saw in the Falcons equipment room in the spring of 1995, those were regular season white road jerseys intended for use in the 1995 season. The main reason the equipment manager was showing me the jerseys is that the Falcons had made a slight change to their white jerseys for the upcoming 1995 season (added a black trim to the collar).

As for different suppliers providing the throwbacks, the only team that I am aware of that used a different supplier for its throwbacks was San Diego. The regular season jerseys were Starter and the throwbacks were Russell. Here are the teams I am familiar with and can positively identify the suppliers:

Atlanta - Russell
Buffalo - Champion
Chicago - Champion
Dallas - Apex
Denver - Wilson
Detroit - Apex (their non-throwback jerseys worn in the first part of the season were Wilson as they didn't start wearing the Apex jerseys until later.)
Green Bay - Starter
Kansas City - Wilson
Los Angeles Rams - Russell
Miami - Wilson
Oakland - Starter
Philadelphia - Russell
Pittsburgh - Starter
New Orleans - Champion
New York Giants - Apex
New York Jets - Champion
San Diego - Russell on throwbacks and Starter for non-throwbacks
San Francisco - Wilson
Seattle - Wilson
Washington - Starter

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

So, i wanted to break up these posts as the last one was responding to prior responses. This is a new batch of questions (not pertaining specifically to the Bills, but used as an example because Im familiar)...

This talk of the Bears pro Shop making the top of the line ones for sale....
I always guessed the jerseys (like back in the day) came to the team blank and they applied #'s on site. When I think about it though, since ALL/MOST legit Champions have that 'Champion Font' - were they numbered/plated during manufacturing and sent out to the team? I ask bc when the Bills had preseason or quick roster adds, the name plates dont have the Champion font but rather the same style/font from back when they were wearing Sand Knit - which makes me think they were only capable of making that style on site.
So, if they DIDNT make jerseys on site, how do things like THIS exist?



This particular shirt came from Fleer when they went bankrupt. It was a jersey they bought as game worn and would have been sliced and diced for cards - but obviously wasnt due to them ceasing operations. Font is right, name plate font and length is right, and heck - even the micro mesh and cuffs are right for the Bills BUT dont jive with Kelly as he never wore micromesh, nor did he wear this cut furnishing the cuffed sleeves. I'm sure it was just a charity shirt as there were a ton (different from the 'authentics' sold in the Bills store) but I was always curious if it came from Champion or this was a blank made up in house (again needing correct font etc). If by chance it was, then why the funky sand knit font for newbies as I mentioned earlier. Hopefully someone with another Champion wearing team cane shed some light on this - I'd REALLY appreciate it lol.


Lastly, when I got my white throwback Kelly in hand I was amazed at the sleeves. Normal Bills/Kelly gamers were streamlined as the need to cut the bottom stripe to open flexability ended in the 1990 season (prior to champion redesign with nfl shield and making things a bit more 'uniform'). You still saw double stripes rocked by players after this, but they were just old/recycled jerseys.
I wondered if the game jerseys had this issue as well and after finding a pic of Kelly in action, it is apparent that they did indeed had these HUGE shoulder/sleeves. Infact, it may be the reason they only played with 1 stripe.
No matter if they were just tucked and hemmed, chopped off ( I STILL cant tell and it drives me nuts) or were manufactured with 1 stripe (in which case Champion would have had to manufacture something TOTALLY different as all the Kellys in this thread have 2 stripes - those long sleeves and 2nd stripe were/would have been quite restrictive. I TOTALLY see why they wore only the 1 stripe (however the stripe subtraction took place) and I'm starting to lean towards cut or hemmed because the reason the shoulder/sleeve parachutes like that almost seems to be the 2nd stripe!!!!

Normal Bills jerseys only had 1 and didnt have this issue. The following pics show the extra piece of fabric added in the armpit area so the sleeve could be this way and have an extra stripe. Its ironic then it was eliminated bc it appears the entire pattern of the jersey construct was altered to adjust to this. To me, the close up looks like the 2nd stripe might be folded under and sewn/hemmed on the inside rather than cut but it looks like it might exist rather than manufactured w 1. Anyone else see that?






Lastly, I'm not sure if it was all teams, but another reason i think these look great is because they didnt do the dazzle shoulders and went back to the old way of the double later mesh, the same material of the rest of the jersey- just doubled up.

Good stuff, and any thoughts on the above are appreciated!

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

WOW!!!! GREAT POSTS GUYS!!!!!

Thank you, I really enjoyed reading those - VERY informative.
Those throwback pics from Mark and Samets are pretty amazing as well. Fantastic looking jerseys!

Mark, one thing i didnt follow was the Falcons used their throwbacks again for the hall of fame game the following season in 95? Was this an all new set then? Obviously the roster wouldnt be the same and it would be heavily expanded if that game took place in the spring back then as it does now. That seems like a LOT of extra Falcons throwbacks out there so that makes me think I misunderstood you.
The rack of whites you saw, were they all throwback George? or if a year later, just all regular white George that were made for charity/sale etc.
I think I read here some teams had to have a different supplier for the throwback sets? Was there ever a reason or theory as to why this took place?
Also, I've always kinda wondered about the non M&N 'issued/game cut' Favre and Elways out there. Were these just mass produced retail versions or at the time did the team just make a bunch that were sold similar to the Bears story?

Speaking of the Bears story... man- that AWESOME!!! I WISH the Bills did something similar. I was 10 in 94 and was just awestruck with these throwbacks. I thought jerseys in general were cool (as evidenced by my drawings from back then. They always had the the NFL shield at the neck and Champion C logos on the sleeves lol) but I remember my parents inquiring to local stores selling jerseys as well as the Bills store itself trying to find SOMETHING throwback to no avail.

Its REALLY neat that the Bears offered T shirts and different level replica/authentic for purchase. That said, I'm surprised you dont come across these more often if they were avbl for public/retail purchase. What were the small differences between the store and the game jerseys? were the lower level Champion jerseys as well? Very cool the Bears had the foresight to offer something like that as now its a given (and maybe even done FOR the prospect of sales) but back then it obv wasnt taken advantage to its fullest potential for a marketing/sales standpoint. Oddly, that 6 on the kicker jersey looks like an upside-down 9. That was the one you said was a retail, right?

Champion really knew how to make a jersey. The detail and how that appears to be made is REALLY cool. As was the double tagging - tagging done right! Bills jerseys from these years didnt seem to have double tags if it was a mid season order, were Bears done that way too?

Over all, really cool stuff!!! I love talking and learning about these 94 jerseys as they really were ahead of their time as this was kind of the beginning of the 'throwback' trend - and for us jersey heads- thats kinda special.