Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
1) as many have seen, lampson has come to some truly bizarre conclusions numerous times over. it's not that folks aren't willing or even wanting to believe him. it's just that, at a minimum, they're curious how he came to his unorthodox opinions. after all, there must be some method to his madness. when lambert asserted he'd never worn short sleeves, his evidence was his memory and first-hand experience which certainly carry substantial weight. what then was behind lou's (and mears') assertion that lambert was wrong? apparently neither can produce a single photo. lou's main evidence seems to be the "suggestions of colleagues" that photos of lambert wearing a short-sleeved shirt, much like photos of sasquatch, may possibly exist. mastro tossed in a cropped "photomatch" that showed a long-sleeve shirt. when mears and lampson were asserting that lambert was wrong, they had no photographic evidence to back it up. what then did they base their opinions on and what evidence did they have add weight to those opinions? i hope it doesn't revolve around these shirts being owned by bushing or lampson.
2) the fonts: the kerning is different. maybe there's a legit reason for it, maybe not. a steelers expert familiar with that era might know. i've seen legit kerning differences (within the same team and same year) and fraudulent kerning differences. robert, in photo C, the "A" and "M" are different fonts than on the other photos. the middle of the M goes all the way to the bottom. not sure which version matches game photos.
3) grob: i understand that mears sells access to their previous evaluations. that's fair. after all, they're in the business of selling opinions and a good amount of work often goes into those opinions. the thing, i wasn't asking for the evaluation results or any of the supporting work. i wasn't asking for photos, pop reports, opinions, or anything of the sort. i was simply asking for mears to either confirm or deny that they'd worked on a short-sleeved lambert in spring 2007. my only purpose was to see if mears was the "third party authenticator" being referred to on lambert's website. what sort of truly bizarre professional outfit won't simply confirm or deny that it was responsible for a certain piece of work? i can't think of a single profession or company that won't take credit for work they've done. then again, if i had slapped an 8.5 onto a short-sleeved lambert and told lambert he was wrong about his jerseys, then i guess i'd be pretty hesitant to take responsibility as well. anyway, judging from some of the sentiment i've heard about dave's response, good luck to mears in soliciting free help from others in the future.
rudy.
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
Robert,i'm not quite sure which jerseys dave is referring to - i believe the jersey being debated is an '84 road jersey (white), not a home jersey as dave mentions. further, the '83 jersey rudy linked to (which appears to be one mears was involved with) is a home jersey - dave states that mears has an '83 road jersey in its database which, obviously, would seem to imply that the '83 home jersey sold through mastro (which rudy linked to) didn't involve mears. if this is the case then we're looking at three short sleeve lambert shirts.
as far as dave stating "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." - i just don't get it nor do i understand why responding to such a question would be "unfair" to mears members. i would think mears would be eager and willing to respond fully to any questions regarding an item thought to have been evaluated by their team - especially given mears' past relationship with mastro. but, hey, what do i know?
btw do any of you jersey experts find anything odd about the letter spacing found on the short sleeve lambert shirt being discussed? as i've mentioned before, i know zilch about jerseys but i noticed that the letters appear to be spaced much farther apart in game photos when compared to the '84 ss road jersey in quesion. photos a&b are game photos, photo c is a long sleeve road gamer sold at auction (letter spacing is consistent with game photos), and photo d shows two shots of the short sleeve '84 road shirt.
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I forgot to add this important observation...notice the #58 on the shoulders and how much the vary in space from the short sleeved version vs. the long sleeve version...a noticeable difference!
If someone can find a photo of Lambert with the #58 shoulder numbers that close to the neck line, please post...I'm willing to bet that photo is as common as Lambert wearing short sleeves.....Leave a comment:
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
Robert,i'm not quite sure which jerseys dave is referring to - i believe the jersey being debated is an '84 road jersey (white), not a home jersey as dave mentions. further, the '83 jersey rudy linked to (which appears to be one mears was involved with) is a home jersey - dave states that mears has an '83 road jersey in its database which, obviously, would seem to imply that the '83 home jersey sold through mastro (which rudy linked to) didn't involve mears. if this is the case then we're looking at three short sleeve lambert shirts.
as far as dave stating "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." - i just don't get it nor do i understand why responding to such a question would be "unfair" to mears members. i would think mears would be eager and willing to respond fully to any questions regarding an item thought to have been evaluated by their team - especially given mears' past relationship with mastro. but, hey, what do i know?
btw do any of you jersey experts find anything odd about the letter spacing found on the short sleeve lambert shirt being discussed? as i've mentioned before, i know zilch about jerseys but i noticed that the letters appear to be spaced much farther apart in game photos when compared to the '84 ss road jersey in quesion. photos a&b are game photos, photo c is a long sleeve road gamer sold at auction (letter spacing is consistent with game photos), and photo d shows two shots of the short sleeve '84 road shirt.
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You claim to no "zilch" about these jerseys, but I have to disagree!
You have a very keen eye! As a Steelers collector, that is one of the first things I look at...the font on the name plate and yes, you are correct, it doesn't look right to me either.
Here are some photos from the Steelers Hall of Fame at Heinz Field...notice the name plate font on the road whites...matches Lambert game photos, not the short sleeved road jersey. Also, a Lambert home black jersey....shocker, its long sleeved!
Notice that these jerseys don't have the extra sewn on length added to them that recently sold at a few different auction house....why is that? IMO...they never existed!
Notice that many of these jerseys don't have the Steelers Sand Knit "Exclusive" Tag...why is that? IMO...it was never there to begin with!
Maybe Lou Lamspon thinks like George Constanza...."It's Not a Lie, If You Believe It."Attached FilesLeave a comment:
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
i would like to hear the explanation as well. and while the explanations are flowing, perhaps someone can also chime in on why an old jack lambert wore a black, long sleeve jersey during the final game of his career, a sunny afternoon game in miami, florida. i mean didn't someone state that lambert's sleeves were chopped for just these sort of games...
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
i'm not quite sure which jerseys dave is referring to - i believe the jersey being debated is an '84 road jersey (white), not a home jersey as dave mentions. further, the '83 jersey rudy linked to (which appears to be one mears was involved with) is a home jersey - dave states that mears has an '83 road jersey in its database which, obviously, would seem to imply that the '83 home jersey sold through mastro (which rudy linked to) didn't involve mears. if this is the case then we're looking at three short sleeve lambert shirts.Originally posted by Dave grob
as far as dave stating "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." - i just don't get it nor do i understand why responding to such a question would be "unfair" to mears members. i would think mears would be eager and willing to respond fully to any questions regarding an item thought to have been evaluated by their team - especially given mears' past relationship with mastro. but, hey, what do i know?
btw do any of you jersey experts find anything odd about the letter spacing found on the short sleeve lambert shirt being discussed? as i've mentioned before, i know zilch about jerseys but i noticed that the letters appear to be spaced much farther apart in game photos when compared to the '84 ss road jersey in quesion. photos a&b are game photos, photo c is a long sleeve road gamer sold at auction (letter spacing is consistent with game photos), and photo d shows two shots of the short sleeve '84 road shirt.
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
while mears didn't examine the recent '84 lambert jersey that is being discussed, dave's warm and friendly reply suggests that they did examine this one:
the '83 jersey shown above closed in spring of 2007 but sold for only $8,354. lambert's site references one sold by mastro in spring 2007 that sold for more than $15k. how many short-sleeved lamberts could mastro have auctioned off? anyway, apparently on the '83 mears mentioned the sleeves and deducted points for them but that info didn't seem to make its way to the description. not sure how it rated an 8.5 but there you have it. was mears the "third-party authenticator" who refused to budge when confronted by lambert's rep? it's possible given the reasoning, cited by lambert's rep, that it "matched their database" and the comparisons to irrrelevant examples that appear to be mears' hallmarks. then again, to find out for sure i'd probably have to fork over $40.
rudy.Leave a comment:
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
From the MEARS forum:
The 1984 Jack Lambert Jersey Offered by Mastro
December 17 2008 at 11:03 AM Dave Grob
In response to an e-mail:
dave
did mears authenticate a short-sleeved jack lambert
steelers shirt for mastro some time around last spring?
thanks,
rudy
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My response:
Rudy,
How do I answer this? If I tell you that this information is available to you and any one else who wishes to be a MEARS Member, I will railed for blowing you off or assumed to be hiding something. I will answer this your question this time as it is fundamentally unfair to MEARS Members to do so in the future.
We did not look at the 1984 home jersey that appears to be of current debate. There is a Jack Lambert ROAD jersey from 1983 in the data base that had the sleeves "cut short" and left un-hemmed. 1.5 points were taken off for this and the comments for this evaluation include:
"The images we referenced were from 1983 and showed Lambert wearing long sleeves. The sleeves are trimmed with the reason and/or purpose of their shortening unknown."
As I mentioned above, please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it.
v/r
DaveLeave a comment:
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
lambert's website says that they notified mastro last spring about a short-sleeved lambert jersey they were running at that time. according to lambert's website mastro "..cited a 'third-party authenticator' had given their blessings as they pertained to the authenticity of the Lambert jersey based upon a data base that was consistent with jerseys worn by Ted Hendricks and Earl Campbell....When we informed the auction house that Jack never, EVER wore short sleeves during any NFL game, they argued that we were incorrect...The sale of this "game used" jersey went as planned to the tune of more than $15,000...So now the same auction house has presented yet another "game used" Jack Lambert jersey for auction".
given that the photo is from the mastro auction that just ended, the post is obviously recent. last spring (spring of 2007), MEARS was still under contract with mastro. i have an email in to dave grob to find out if MEARS authenticated a short-sleeved lambert for mastro sometime around last spring.
lambert's rep seemed pretty certain even going so far as to say there's a very specific reason why lambert never wore short sleeves. yet if you look at the mastro (lampson) loa, lou's not nearly as certain, stating that lambert "perhaps" wore long sleeves. the idea that his colleagues suggested photos exist is laughable because they apparently weren't able to produce a single one of those photos. so his expert colleagues saw rare photos of lambert wearing short sleeves and not a single one of them managed to procure one of these photos? horsepuckey. any decent collector (or authenticator) would have a massive photo library and upon stumbling upon such photos of lambert wearing short sleeves would obviously add the photos to their library knowing what a huge find it is to have even a single pic showing lambert wearing short sleeves in an NFL game.
anyway, about 80% of the lampsons LOA is a defense that tries to justify all of the jerseys anomalies and inconsistencies. it's similar to when lou read robert's analysis of the blanda helmet and then spent his entire LOA countering every point. the jersey's so good that it needs to be defended vigorously. in typical lou style, there are red flags but he casts them all aside and says the jerseys is "acceptable nonetheless". i'm guessing that if mastro sold a short-sleeved lambert last spring for over $15,000 and this one sold for a paltry $3500 then apparently it wasn't acceptable to most bidders.
re: the cropping of the photo.
i suspected as much. the photo suspiciously ended right at the sleeves. golly, what could they be trying to hide? how is a photo of lambert wearing a long-sleeved shirt supposed to be a "photomatch" for a short-sleeved shirt? only in doug allen's wacky world of photomatching, where a photomatch isn't really a photomatch and many times it's not even a stylematch. painstaking!
rudy.Leave a comment:
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
You know, you try and give Lou and the auction houses the benefit of the doubt, but when you see auction houses refusing to pull a jersey on the actual player's say so where a clearcut issue is involved like this, mysteriously cropped pics to support an item, and obvious fantasy in item descriptions and LOA's, you really have to wonder what it takes to get a prosecution for fraud in this friggin' country anymore.Leave a comment:
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
As I've previously stated before on this forum, if Lambert was wearing a short sleeve jersey that was originally a long sleeve jersey, it would show remnants of the elbow pad stitching into the sleeve stripes...Attached FilesLeave a comment:
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
when i mentioned that the mastro "stylematch" photo had been cropped, i may not have been clear. the photo below shows how much of the original photo was excluded from the mastro lot description, everything below the red line. mysteriously the top, left and right edges of the original photo were not cropped, just the bottom. innocent occurrence? you be the judge...
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
heck, mears might have graded this thing out at an a10 given a) the lack of game photo evidence b) the fact that other steelers players were known to have worn short sleeves and c) it's clear lambert sported short sleeves while at kent. on the other hand mears might have also deducted a point or two for excessive wear - i mean what collector wants to see repairs made to a jersey?
btw you gotta love how lampson (presumably) has massaged the lot description each time out. when it was listed at vintage, it was a game jersey and the sleeves had been chopped because of hot game time weather. when it was listed at mastro, it became a practice jersey and the sleeves had been chopped for use during "informal workouts" and the like. beautiful.
vintage authentics:
"... sleeves have been custom cut and hemmed perhaps in anticipation of a warm weather game."
mastro:
"...sleeves were cut and hemmed, probably after game use for potential use in off season mini camps, informal workouts, and even training camp."
the level of enthusiasm over the jersey's game use was also tempered by the time it hit mastro:
vintage authentics:
"Overall the game use evidence is solid and consistent throughout leading this quality gamer to a final high authentic grade of 9 - as nice a Lambert as you'll find."
mastro:
"The wear appears consistent and solid but not great... It could have a lot more wear, but it is his final season when he only played eight games... an acceptable representation from a final season."
wow from a "high authentic grade of 9" to an "acceptable representation"? good grief.
you'll probably get a kick out of this - mastro's "stylematch" photo that you posted was actually cropped to, imo, imply that the sleeves might be short. here's the full, uncropped photo - i think it paints a different picture as far as the sleeves are concerned. btw the photo is from the last game of the steelers' 1983 season, a playoff game in which the steelers were routed by the raiders. following the uncropped photo i've included two other photos from that game - clearly not a short sleeved shirt. the last two photos show lambert in the final game of his career, a playoff loss to the fins to end the 1984 season - another long sleeved jersey, go figure...Originally posted by kingjammy24
from the final game of lambert's career:
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Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....
is it the same lambert that's been pinging around the hobby from broadway rick to vintage to GFC?
rudy.Leave a comment:
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