Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

[aeneas01]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

Ok, Lou...please explain this photo of Jack Lambert from 1984?

i would like to hear the explanation as well. and while the explanations are flowing, perhaps someone can also chime in on why an old jack lambert wore a black, long sleeve jersey during the final game of his career, a sunny afternoon game in miami, florida. i mean didn't someone state that lambert's sleeves were chopped for just these sort of games...

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[beantown]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

i'm not quite sure which jerseys dave is referring to - i believe the jersey being debated is an '84 road jersey (white), not a home jersey as dave mentions. further, the '83 jersey rudy linked to (which appears to be one mears was involved with) is a home jersey - dave states that mears has an '83 road jersey in its database which, obviously, would seem to imply that the '83 home jersey sold through mastro (which rudy linked to) didn't involve mears. if this is the case then we're looking at three short sleeve lambert shirts.

as far as dave stating "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." - i just don't get it nor do i understand why responding to such a question would be "unfair" to mears members. i would think mears would be eager and willing to respond fully to any questions regarding an item thought to have been evaluated by their team - especially given mears' past relationship with mastro. but, hey, what do i know?

btw do any of you jersey experts find anything odd about the letter spacing found on the short sleeve lambert shirt being discussed? as i've mentioned before, i know zilch about jerseys but i noticed that the letters appear to be spaced much farther apart in game photos when compared to the '84 ss road jersey in quesion. photos a&b are game photos, photo c is a long sleeve road gamer sold at auction (letter spacing is consistent with game photos), and photo d shows two shots of the short sleeve '84 road shirt.





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Robert,

You claim to no "zilch" about these jerseys, but I have to disagree!

You have a very keen eye! As a Steelers collector, that is one of the first things I look at...the font on the name plate and yes, you are correct, it doesn't look right to me either.

Here are some photos from the Steelers Hall of Fame at Heinz Field...notice the name plate font on the road whites...matches Lambert game photos, not the short sleeved road jersey. Also, a Lambert home black jersey....shocker, its long sleeved!

Notice that these jerseys don't have the extra sewn on length added to them that recently sold at a few different auction house....why is that? IMO...they never existed!

Notice that many of these jerseys don't have the Steelers Sand Knit "Exclusive" Tag...why is that? IMO...it was never there to begin with!

Maybe Lou Lamspon thinks like George Constanza...."It's Not a Lie, If You Believe It."

[beantown]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

i'm not quite sure which jerseys dave is referring to - i believe the jersey being debated is an '84 road jersey (white), not a home jersey as dave mentions. further, the '83 jersey rudy linked to (which appears to be one mears was involved with) is a home jersey - dave states that mears has an '83 road jersey in its database which, obviously, would seem to imply that the '83 home jersey sold through mastro (which rudy linked to) didn't involve mears. if this is the case then we're looking at three short sleeve lambert shirts.

as far as dave stating "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." - i just don't get it nor do i understand why responding to such a question would be "unfair" to mears members. i would think mears would be eager and willing to respond fully to any questions regarding an item thought to have been evaluated by their team - especially given mears' past relationship with mastro. but, hey, what do i know?

btw do any of you jersey experts find anything odd about the letter spacing found on the short sleeve lambert shirt being discussed? as i've mentioned before, i know zilch about jerseys but i noticed that the letters appear to be spaced much farther apart in game photos when compared to the '84 ss road jersey in quesion. photos a&b are game photos, photo c is a long sleeve road gamer sold at auction (letter spacing is consistent with game photos), and photo d shows two shots of the short sleeve '84 road shirt.





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Robert,

I forgot to add this important observation...notice the #58 on the shoulders and how much the vary in space from the short sleeved version vs. the long sleeve version...a noticeable difference!

If someone can find a photo of Lambert with the #58 shoulder numbers that close to the neck line, please post...I'm willing to bet that photo is as common as Lambert wearing short sleeves.....

[kingjammy24]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

1) as many have seen, lampson has come to some truly bizarre conclusions numerous times over. it's not that folks aren't willing or even wanting to believe him. it's just that, at a minimum, they're curious how he came to his unorthodox opinions. after all, there must be some method to his madness. when lambert asserted he'd never worn short sleeves, his evidence was his memory and first-hand experience which certainly carry substantial weight. what then was behind lou's (and mears') assertion that lambert was wrong? apparently neither can produce a single photo. lou's main evidence seems to be the "suggestions of colleagues" that photos of lambert wearing a short-sleeved shirt, much like photos of sasquatch, may possibly exist. mastro tossed in a cropped "photomatch" that showed a long-sleeve shirt. when mears and lampson were asserting that lambert was wrong, they had no photographic evidence to back it up. what then did they base their opinions on and what evidence did they have add weight to those opinions? i hope it doesn't revolve around these shirts being owned by bushing or lampson.

2) the fonts: the kerning is different. maybe there's a legit reason for it, maybe not. a steelers expert familiar with that era might know. i've seen legit kerning differences (within the same team and same year) and fraudulent kerning differences. robert, in photo C, the "A" and "M" are different fonts than on the other photos. the middle of the M goes all the way to the bottom. not sure which version matches game photos.

3) grob: i understand that mears sells access to their previous evaluations. that's fair. after all, they're in the business of selling opinions and a good amount of work often goes into those opinions. the thing, i wasn't asking for the evaluation results or any of the supporting work. i wasn't asking for photos, pop reports, opinions, or anything of the sort. i was simply asking for mears to either confirm or deny that they'd worked on a short-sleeved lambert in spring 2007. my only purpose was to see if mears was the "third party authenticator" being referred to on lambert's website. what sort of truly bizarre professional outfit won't simply confirm or deny that it was responsible for a certain piece of work? i can't think of a single profession or company that won't take credit for work they've done. then again, if i had slapped an 8.5 onto a short-sleeved lambert and told lambert he was wrong about his jerseys, then i guess i'd be pretty hesitant to take responsibility as well. anyway, judging from some of the sentiment i've heard about dave's response, good luck to mears in soliciting free help from others in the future.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....



yes, not only do the letters appear to be spaced very close together on the short sleeve shirt (framed in blue lines above), but the center "m" is not consistent with the gamers shown. interestingly, even long names such as "greenwood" and "stallworth" were generously spaced when it came to steelers road jerseys of that era - nothing like the short sleeve shirt. in fact the letter spacing and "m" of the ss jersey are consistent with "authentic" reproductions found around the web.

so what are we looking at, what's the score?

1. lambert was known to have worn long sleeve jerseys throughout his career and his website confirms this. further, no photo or film frame of lambert wearing a short sleeve jersey can be produced. yet, according to the loa, lambert "perhaps" wore a short sleeve jersey at the end of his career. the proof? according to the author of the loa, "collegues" have "suggested" as much.

2. the jersey was once listed as a gamer, graded a high 9, and described as "... as nice a lambert as you will find." some time later it hit the blocks again but this time it was listed as a practice shirt, without a grade, and described as "... an acceptable representation". it appears that both descriptions were authored by the same person.

3. when the jersey was first listed as a gamer and graded a high 9, the loa stated that the sleeves were cut to provide comfort during warm game days late in lambert's career. yet every photo and film frame show lambert wearing his long sleeve jersey late in his career, even during hot days. in fact lambert can clearly be seen wearing his long sleeve jesey, his black one no less, in the final game of his career which took place on a sunny afternoon in miami.

4. in one of the loas the author boldly defends the short sleeves by stating "... one might expect to see stitch remnants of oval sleeve reinforcements which extended up into the lowermost regions of the sleeve stripe pattern... by '82, '83, '84, '85 and onward, a long sleeve jersey almost would not have had the reinforcement." fact: photo evidence exists of lambert wearing long sleeve jerseys with sleeve reinforcements through the final year of his career, 1984. fact: photo evidence exists of other steelers players wearing short sleeve jerseys with visible remnants of sleeve reinforcements during the early '80s.

5. so what are we left with? we're left with a) a short sleeve shirt void of any elbow reinforced stitching which would suggest it was once a long sleeved jersey, b) shoulder numbers that appear far too close to the collar, c) nob lettering that's more consistent with "authentic" reproductions than gamers, d) zero photo evidence that lambert ever wore a short sleeve jersey and e) an authenticator claiming that lambert wore this jersey.

6. we're also left with a) clear photo evidence that lambert wore a long sleeve jersey throughout his career including the final game he ever played, b) his word that he never wore a short sleeve shirt and c) a body of evidence that contradicts most everything stated in the loas.

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[kingjammy24]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

.. so what are we looking at, what's the score?
....

apparently it all adds up to a mears 8.5! almost makes you wonder what sort of lambert jersey you'd have to present to get an "unable to authenticate". maybe one without any sleeves at all? "tank-top style". or would that just be another 1 pt deduction?

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

apparently it all adds up to a mears 8.5! almost makes you wonder what sort of lambert jersey you'd have to present to get an "unable to authenticate". maybe one without any sleeves at all? "tank-top style". or would that just be another 1 pt deduction?

so what's the deal - is dave grob unsure of which lambert jersey mears actually authenticated, is he confused? or does mears' database contain bad information? i ask because dave stated that the only lambert jersey mears authenticated, the only lambert jersey found in mears' database, is a short sleeve '83 road jersey which mears awarded an 8.5 (1.5 points deducted for short sleeves). the thing is, i don't think a lambert '83 short sleeve road jersey has ever surfaced - at least it hasn't been discussed here.

the short sleeve lambert jerseys that have been discused are:

1. vintage athentics (04/07, $7,200): '84 road (white) jersey listed as a gamer, graded 9, and descibed as "... as nice a lambert jersey as you'll find".

2. mastro (11/08, $3,500): '84 road (white) jersey listed as a practice shirt, not graded, and described as an "... acceptable representation...". this jersey is the exact same shirt as mentioned above, previously listed by vintage authentics.

3. mastro (04/07, $8,400): '83 home (black) jersey listed as a gamer, graded 8.5, and described as "...spectacular". is this the "'83 road jersey" dave is referring to? the jersey that mears authenticated and which they contain in their database? fwiw this same jersey sold at gfc in 12/06 for $6,300.

i agree with you rudy - it appears this is another example of mears' inability to photo style-match a shirt yet going ahead and stamping it with a high grade and declaring it an authentic gamer. i wonder if mears owned this jersey when they graded it.

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[trsent]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

The jersey Rudy mentioned is the same jersey discussed by Dave Grob as the MEARS database only shows one Jack Lambert jersey, and it is identified as Lot #1431 in the description.

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot+Information&LotIndex=70594&LastLotListing=Lot+Search+List&CurrentRow=1

[aeneas01]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

The jersey Rudy mentioned is the same jersey discussed by Dave Grob as the MEARS database only shows one Jack Lambert jersey, and it is identified as Lot #1431 in the description.

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?a...t&CurrentRow=1

so dave got it wrong when he stated that the only lambert jersey mears has in its database, the only lambert jersey mears has authenticated, is an "83 road jersey"? because the shirt you linked to is not an '83 road jersey as dave mentioned, it's an '83 home jersey.

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[trsent]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

so dave got it wrong when he stated that the only lambert jersey mears has in its database, the only lambert jersey mears has authenticated, is an "83 road jersey"? because the shirt you linked to is not an '83 road jersey as dave mentioned, it's an '83 home jersey.

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I only found this one jersey in the MEARS online database. I assume Dave mis-titled the jersey, but I do not know. Dave's email can be found on the MEARS forum if you wish to email him your question.

[aeneas01]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

Dave's email can be found on the MEARS forum if you wish to email him your question.

i think dave has made it pretty clear that he (and mears) will not answer questions regarding items they have authenticated - something about it being unfair to their paid subscribers. in fact i believe you copied and pasted this point from the mears bulletin board, no?

given mears' policy i guess it's safe to say that mears is pretty much like lampson in terms of trying to get answers about their findings and loas - explanations are simply not available. unless, of course, you care to pay a mears' membership fee to find out why they might have graded a jersey an 8.5, called it "sensational", and declared it a gamer despite no photo support whatsoever. as i've mentioned before, i would think mears would want to respond to questions regarding their curious decisions - promptly and free of charge. but what do i know. btw if lampson ever joined the internet age he could get in on this pay per view service as well.

speaking of lampson, i've noticed that he has no problem changing his findings, changing the content of his loas, as an item makes the rounds and he's asked/paid to write an opinion on the item again. the lambert jersey is a good example, the blanda helmet is another good example and so is a "hacksaw" reynolds rams helmet that he authenticated.

i wonder how it works at mears. given their database, i'm assuming that once mears writes an loa for an item then that's it - that this item will always be backed by the mears loa. if this is the case, then it would seem that as the item makes the rounds through the years accompanied with the mears loa, then any auction house could simply quote the mears loa that came with the item as part of their lot description - without having to pay mears. a free authentication if you will.

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[trsent]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

i think dave has made it pretty clear that he (and mears) will not answer questions regarding items they have authenticated - something about it being unfair to their paid subscribers. in fact i believe you copied and pasted this point from the mears bulletin board, no?

given mears' policy i guess it's safe to say that mears is pretty much like lampson in terms of trying to get answers about their findings and loas - explanations are simply not available. unless, of course, you care to pay a mears' membership fee to find out why they might have graded a jersey an 8.5, called it "sensational", and declared it a gamer despite no photo support whatsoever. as i've mentioned before, i would think mears would want to respond to questions regarding their curious decisions - promptly and free of charge. but what do i know. btw if lampson ever joined the internet age he could get in on this pay per view service as well.

speaking of lampson, i've noticed that he has no problem changing his findings, changing the content of his loas, as an item makes the rounds and he's asked/paid to write an opinion on the item again. the lambert jersey is a good example, the blanda helmet is another good example and so is a "hacksaw" reynolds rams helmet that he authenticated.

i wonder how it works at mears. given their database, i'm assuming that once mears writes an loa for an item then that's it - that this item will always be backed by the mears loa. if this is the case, then it would seem that as the item makes the rounds through the years accompanied with the mears loa, then any auction house could simply quote the mears loa that came with the item as part of their lot description - without having to pay mears. a free authentication if you will.

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Robert, Dave said he will not answer questions found in their online database, but if you emailed him asking if there was some confusion over if the jersey was a home or road jersey, I would think he would answer the question.

I think your comparison between MEARS and Lou Lampson is a bit extreme, don't you? MEARS has emails, forums, phones, physical addresses that you can offer them questions and concerns. I believe Dave Grob was addressing a general question that he felt were unfair to paying MEARS members if he answered.

I do not believe MEARS has ever backed down from a discussion about their grades or a particular item when approached. Has Lou Lampson ever answered questions about his authentications that have come up on this forum?

[aeneas01]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

Robert, Dave said he will not answer questions found in their online database, but if you emailed him asking if there was some confusion over if the jersey was a home or road jersey, I would think he would answer the question.

apparently you know dave better than i and can speak to what he's most likely open to answering. but based on his response to rudy, i think it's clear he's serious about his position and i would rather not guess what he might answer and what he won't answer. further, i'll respect his position and not ask him about items mears has authenticated.

I think your comparison between MEARS and Lou Lampson is a bit extreme, don't you? MEARS has emails, forums, phones, physical addresses that you can offer them questions and concerns. I believe Dave Grob was addressing a general question that he felt were unfair to paying MEARS members if he answered.

i'm not sure what good a physical address, a phone number and an email address serves if mears clearly states they will not answer a collector's questions regarding items they've authenticated if not a paid member. imo this makes mears just as incommunicado as lampson given i have no interest in paying their fee. as far as dave is concerned, i don't think he was answering a "general" question as you suggest - i believe he was answering a very specific question and the question was "did mears authenticate a short-sleeved jack lambert steelers shirt for mastro..." and dave responded very specifically "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." nothing ambiguous or general about the question or response. so, again, i'll respect dave's position.

Has Lou Lampson ever answered questions about his authentications that have come up on this forum?

lamspon responded to the gazillion concerns i had with a blanda helmet he authenticated, concerns which i posted at the forum. he addressed every single point i made in a 15 page manifesto which was included in mastro's last auction. he's also responded, indirectly, to other problems i've found with some of the lids he's authenticated. mears responded to my concerns regarding half a dozen bunk helmets sold through mastro that were said to have been authenticated by mears and furnished with mears loas - none of the helmets were as described. mears was quick to say they never looked at these lids nor issued loas, that mastro incorrectly added mears' name to the lot descriptions, and buyers were offered refunds. but i guess mears decided to respond because these lids were not in their database? who knows.

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[trsent]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

apparently you know dave better than i and can speak to what he's most likely open to answering. but based on his response to rudy, i think it's clear he's serious about his position and i would rather not guess what he might answer and what he won't answer. further, i'll respect his position and not ask him about items mears has authenticated.

i'm not sure what good a physical address, a phone number and an email address serves if mears clearly states they will not answer a collector's questions regarding items they've authenticated if not a paid member. imo this makes mears just as incommunicado as lampson given i have no interest in paying their fee. as far as dave is concerned, i don't think he was answering a "general" question as you suggest - i believe he was answering a very specific question and the question was "did mears authenticate a short-sleeved jack lambert steelers shirt for mastro..." and dave responded very specifically "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." nothing ambiguous or general about the question or response. so, again, i'll respect dave's position.

lamspon responded to the gazillion concerns i had with a blanda helmet he authenticated, concerns which i posted at the forum. he addressed every single point i made in a 15 page manifesto which was included in mastro's last auction. he's also responded, indirectly, to other problems i've found with some of the lids he's authenticated. mears responded to my concerns regarding half a dozen bunk helmets sold through mastro that were said to have been authenticated by mears and furnished with mears loas - none of the helmets were as described. mears was quick to say they never looked at these lids nor issued loas, that mastro incorrectly added mears' name to the lot descriptions, and buyers were offered refunds. but i guess mears decided to respond because these lids were not in their database? who knows.

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So, Robert, what are you saying? You don't want to address your question to Dave Grob, and you don't like MEARS, so I do not know how you would like this conversation to continue.

MEARS will answer questions such as the one you have made if you address it to them or they may answer it based on your posts on this forum, but if I were MEARS I would ignore the question since you have compared them to another authenticator because you didn't approve of Dave Grob's public reply to Rudy.

I believe Dave Grob (and I do not speak for him or MEARS) was making it clear that MEARS has a public database that is accessible for a fee so he will not answer questions about what is in that database for non-paying members.

If there is a question about a MEARS LOA I believe MEARS will address the question, but he took a stance and you have turned it all around on them with unpleasant assumptions and comparisons. That is fine if it is how you see things, but I believe they are not going to ignore questions just based on this one situation.

[metsmetsmets]

Re: Jack Lambert game worn jersey....

yes, not only do the letters appear to be spaced very close together on the short sleeve shirt (framed in blue lines above), but the center "m" is not consistent with the gamers shown. interestingly, even long names such as "greenwood" and "stallworth" were generously spaced when it came to steelers road jerseys of that era - nothing like the short sleeve shirt. in fact the letter spacing and "m" of the ss jersey are consistent with "authentic" reproductions found around the web.

so what are we looking at, what's the score?

1. lambert was known to have worn long sleeve jerseys throughout his career and his website confirms this. further, no photo or film frame of lambert wearing a short sleeve jersey can be produced. yet, according to the loa, lambert "perhaps" wore a short sleeve jersey at the end of his career. the proof? according to the author of the loa, "collegues" have "suggested" as much.

2. the jersey was once listed as a gamer, graded a high 9, and described as "... as nice a lambert as you will find." some time later it hit the blocks again but this time it was listed as a practice shirt, without a grade, and described as "... an acceptable representation". it appears that both descriptions were authored by the same person.

3. when the jersey was first listed as a gamer and graded a high 9, the loa stated that the sleeves were cut to provide comfort during warm game days late in lambert's career. yet every photo and film frame show lambert wearing his long sleeve jersey late in his career, even during hot days. in fact lambert can clearly be seen wearing his long sleeve jesey, his black one no less, in the final game of his career which took place on a sunny afternoon in miami.

4. in one of the loas the author boldly defends the short sleeves by stating "... one might expect to see stitch remnants of oval sleeve reinforcements which extended up into the lowermost regions of the sleeve stripe pattern... by '82, '83, '84, '85 and onward, a long sleeve jersey almost would not have had the reinforcement." fact: photo evidence exists of lambert wearing long sleeve jerseys with sleeve reinforcements through the final year of his career, 1984. fact: photo evidence exists of other steelers players wearing short sleeve jerseys with visible remnants of sleeve reinforcements during the early '80s.

5. so what are we left with? we're left with a) a short sleeve shirt void of any elbow reinforced stitching which would suggest it was once a long sleeved jersey, b) shoulder numbers that appear far too close to the collar, c) nob lettering that's more consistent with "authentic" reproductions than gamers, d) zero photo evidence that lambert ever wore a short sleeve jersey and e) an authenticator claiming that lambert wore this jersey.

6. we're also left with a) clear photo evidence that lambert wore a long sleeve jersey throughout his career including the final game he ever played, b) his word that he never wore a short sleeve shirt and c) a body of evidence that contradicts most everything stated in the loas.

....

I noticed that the "A" in LAMBERT on the short sleeve jersey is off, as well. The triangle inside the short sleeve "A" is significantly smaller than the triangle inside the "A" on the confirmed GU Lambert jerseys in your photos.