Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

[skyking26]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

I dont know about you guys, but I learned quite a bit with GUU's auction of Rollie Fingers glove(with letter),the Arod bat with a letter signed by him, and the items going on with Favre.

If you want a letter, let me know, I can get one for you. Is it comforting? Sure, but it doesnt mean the item is what it is.

So are you asking our opinion based on the agreements you have made with NFL teams? If so, wouldnt that be for promotional use? Lets face it folks, this site is for profit now, nothing more, nothing less.

Nate, I still learn and share at this site. What I do not understand is the feeling amongst many that this site or any other can operate for free?? Nothing is for free in life, other than advise, and many chrage for that as well!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

many great points made so far. personally, i don't think the issue here is whether legit items exist without team paperwork. obviously they do, in the same way that there are also items with team paperwork that aren't what they're purported to be. rather, i think the real issue is whether collectors, in the face of "exclusive team deals", should limit themselves only to items with team provenance. that is, if legit items exist with provenance and without then why choose the ones without? sure mark hayne's jerseys are good but if you could purchase the same jerseys with team paperwork then isn't that a more attractive option? i see this as a "provenance vs no provenance" issue and to that end, i think there's merit in chris' argument. while provenance is no guarantee, i'd think at a minimum it's preferable to not having any provenance. (and saying "impeccable team source" is tantamount to having no provenance).

where i disagree is with chris' estimations of legit jerseys leaving via unofficial channels. obviously there are fewer than evidenced by ebay but i don't think things are as airtight as seems to be implied here. look at steiner's "exclusive" deal with the red sox. lowell, beckett, papelbon, and pedroia have all legitimately offered many of their jerseys through PMI. manny took most of his from the sox and dodgers as well. that's some "exclusive" contract when notable players on the team are able to strike individual contracts with competing firms and market their jerseys through those firms. time and time again i've seen legit shirts escape "exclusive" deals via a myriad of ways and reasons. i've yet to see a truly, 100% iron-clad exclusive deal where barely a single shirt escapes. chris, you address this issue by saying you've "..personally met with both the marketing and operations people from the Raiders...they are all..highly ethical...the idea that these jerseys are/will be “getting out the back door” is just not true. While I don’t want to take the liberty of speaking for others, I can tell you the same is also likely true for the Cowboys, Bears, Vikings and Redskins."

things won't be flowing out the back because you've met with some raider folks and they struck you as highly ethical? if they were unethical, would they have come out and admitted it to you? or were you able to somehow conclusively suss out such highly private information? if bernie madoff gained enough trust to manage $50 billion and play every single one of his investors, many of them highly intelligent, and the SEC for fools, then i'm guessing that it'd be possible for the raiders equipment staff to pull one over on chris cavalier.

"While certainly there may be some instances where players may want to keep their jerseys or something along those lines, how many jerseys can there really be outside the ones going through the marketing companies when the marketing company has a deal with the team?"

lots. if each of the 53 members of the raiders kept only 3 of their jerseys from the 2008 regular season, that'd be 159 legit gamers from 2008 alone that wouldn't be from JO Sports. if your deal allows players to keep some of their shirts, as the steiner/red sox deal does, then all you need is a couple of ramirezs and ortizs to take the majority of their shirts and market them privately. if jamarcus russell pulls a manny ramirez and takes most of his shirts, what will JO Sports do then? claim his shirts aren't legit because they don't come from JO Sports?

"In talking with the Raiders, I was able to find out that there had only been one legitimate JaMarcus Russell game used jersey previously ever offered to the secondary market.."

you were told there was only one legitimate one released. this may be different than how many were actually released. after all, if some were released and shouldn't have been, those probably wouldn't have been disclosed to you. anyway, did the number given include any jerseys that jamarcus took and resold himself/privately?

anyway, chris asked a blanket question and i don't think there's a blanket answer. i think every situation ought to be evaluated on its own merits. each person is different, each team is different, each company is different. all team provenance is not created equal. the JO Sports deals will be evaluated based on the quality of their offerings, not simply on their provenance. i think solid provenance is definitely a good thing. i don't think it's infallible. i don't believe things will be as airtight as chris implies. i think it definitely behooves JO Sports' bottomline for people to believe things are completely airtight; that it's as black and white as "if it's from us, it's legit, if it's not from us, it's not legit". as i said, i've seen too many athletes take their own shirts (even going so far as to fool team/league staff), shirts taken by team staff, taken by visting VIPs, etc to believe the whole thing can be airtight.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

will the JO Sports/Raiders deal be as exclusive as the Steiner/Red Sox deal?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130265437545

http://www.steinersports.com/ssm/control/product/~pid=200810451510025

or will the players determine that? if the contract enables players to take their jerseys, then they'll take them and market them wherever it's most profitable to them personally thereby rendering your agreement as no longer exclusive.

"There are few teams in sports with the storied history of the Boston Red Sox and Fenway Park. Developing an exclusive collectibles series is an exciting opportunity,” said Steiner Sports CEO Brandon Steiner. The deals are the latest of Steiner’s exclusive relationships with specific teams or universities."

rudy.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

many great points made so far.

i think solid provenance is definitely a good thing. i don't think it's infallible. i don't believe things will be as airtight as chris implies. i think it definitely behooves JO Sports' bottomline for people to believe things are completely airtight; that it's as black and white as "if it's from us, it's legit, if it's not from us, it's not legit". as i said, i've seen too many athletes take their own shirts (even going so far as to fool team/league staff), shirts taken by team staff, taken by visting VIPs, etc to believe the whole thing can be airtight.

rudy.

Rudy - I agree.

Some may think that JO gets all of the Redskins jerseys which I don't think that may be correct as Comcast Sports has advertised significant Redskins jerseys from this year and then there is the Redskins Visa card promotion where you can get game used jerseys and then you have players that have jerseys.

Also to mention in these theories is whether the players are changing jerseys at Halftime.

Anyway, I think JO is doing an admirable job and their sales appear to be good.

I wish Chris much luck in the new store.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

if the contract enables players to take their jerseys, then they'll take them and market them wherever it's most profitable to them personally thereby rendering your agreement as no longer exclusive.


rudy.

Rudy - As an agent said to me about Manny and his jerseys, "Is the team going to send him to the Minors for taking his jerseys?"

Let's face it, many players take liberties with their jerseys and equipment. It may not be right, but it happens all of the time.

In football, you had Brett Favre, Michael Vick, and others with their own GU deals. Peyton Manning jerseys were all over the internet.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

Also to mention in these theories is whether the players are changing jerseys at Halftime.

Anyway, I think JO is doing an admirable job and their sales appear to be good.

I wish Chris much luck in the new store.

i hope my posts didn't come across as being critical of JO's efforts. certainly i think any ethical, competent outfit that scores a deal with a team and comes up with a great system to ID, tag, and sell gamers is definitely a good thing. i only meant to point the realities behind jerseys escaping "exclusive" deals.

certainly i think we're entering an era of "manufactured" gamers; ie: jerseys worn for specific time periods for the sake of resale. in a way i think that sort of production-line approach is unfortunate.
on the other hand, i think it's incredible how today you can place pre-orders for anything from cleats to locker nameplates to pants, jerseys, bats, hats, gloves, etc from specific players and specific games even. sure the supply has exploded but for pure collecting purposes it's hard to see that as a bad thing per se. if only things had been like this 20 yrs ago and i could've scored joe carter's cleats, robbie alomar's glove, or john olerud's custom batting helmet.

you know, i once asked steiner what's the deal with arod. they said that even cashman can't do anything because noone wants to run the risk of pissing him off. at $275 million, he pretty much owns them, rather than the other way around. if brian bruney wouldn't give over his shirts, steiner would go in swinging. if it's arod, noone can do anything. much like manny i guess. "it's good to be the king". maybe if steiner could've procured more ramirez and arod jerseys, they wouldn't have to resort to selling mike lowell jerseys for $4k. i believe they paid a fixed amount for the contract and likely figured in the price they thought they'd be getting for ramirez and arod shirts. once those two skidaddled, i imagine they had the jack the price up on everything else in order to make up for the ramirez/arod absence.

anyway, if JO Sports manages to procure fantastic gamers for the football crowd and they've got a solid system behind them, then it seems like a good thing all around.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

Rudy - As an agent said to me about Manny and his jerseys, "Is the team going to send him to the Minors for taking his jerseys?"

you remember when they sued ortiz!

"Ortiz also violated the exclusivity clause of their agreement by providing at least four other companies with autographed memorabilia and game-used items, diluting the value of items provided to Steiner, the suit claims.
The lawsuit asks for $1 million plus interest and an accounting of Ortiz' dealings with memorabilia companies in which he received money for autographs and used items."

then again, that was over a contract steiner had directly with ortiz himself. i imagine steiner couldn't/wouldn't sue the yankees because arod doesn't hand over his stuff.

rudy.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

i hope my posts didn't come across as being critical of JO's efforts. certainly i think any ethical, competent outfit that scores a deal with a team and comes up with a great system to ID, tag, and sell gamers is definitely a good thing. i only meant to point the realities behind jerseys escaping "exclusive" deals.

rudy.

I think you were fair with your analysis. There is just not too many "sure things".

The closest to a sure thing I think is MLB Authenticators that are 3rd party individuals with law enforcement backgrounds that are on-site but even they are not 100% but it has more to do with their understanding of the players and the Game Used market. For example, they take a cracked bat and put a hologram on it and you check player characteristics to find it was used by another player. Honest mistakes will always happen.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

i once asked steiner what's the deal with arod. they said that even cashman can't do anything because noone wants to run the risk of pissing him off. at $275 million, he pretty much owns them, rather than the other way around. rudy.

That's how I have heard it too.

One day I will share my story about my dealings trying to purchase some of Manny's significant game used items. That is a soap opera for another day.

[gamer35]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

Rudy,
From what I have seen, Steiner has gotten as many Manny Red Sox shirts as any other player throughout the course of the season (6 in 2007). And I also saw that when the Manny jerseys were sold through Steiner at 5k a pop, they were sold almost immediately. Yet when the initial buyers went to sell them in the secondary market, they saw $2500 tops (I remember one selling thru Lelands at 3k, but that is an anomaly). It does not seem too wise, but I guess it does show you that collectors are willing to pay a premium through Steiner even though there are other legit Manny jerseys out there without team LOA's.

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

First of all, I want to say I think there have been some really great posts on this topic so far. I’d like to add a few more thoughts.

1) Relating to the Raiders items, I believe I mentioned in my original post that there would certainly be instances where some players may want to keep their jerseys as well as the fact that the Raiders may still offer a few jerseys through various Raider events.

2) Regarding the ones offered through the Raiders, I personally would think all of those items would also have Raider paperwork. I believe the same is true for other teams with memorabilia deals as well. For example, I do know the Redskins offer some items outside of the ones they offer to JO Sports. However, from what I can see the other ones coming from the Redskins also appear to all have Redskin paperwork. I personally think the fact they do provide team letters helps weed out the questionable ones that are being offered in the hobby. That is, I would expect any item coming through these various channels by the Redskins to have Redskin paperwork.

3) As for items kept by the players, I really couldn’t say with certainty where those items go. However, given the ones that are taken by star players for resale purposes are now often being sold with player LOAs, I personally don’t think all of the star football jerseys on the market without any paperwork are coming through that scenario. They again, I guess that is a matter of opinion.

4) As for whether or not a team would circumvent a contractual deal they have with a memorabilia company by offering items through unauthorized channels, I guess that is a matter of faith. There is really no way to absolutely refute the comment made here that it is possible. Of course anything is possible. The point I was making was that, based on the relationship we have established with the Raiders, I believe they intend to honor the contract. I can say the same for the Cowboys as I was in the meetings with them as well. And, if a number of star Raider jerseys begin to show up in the secondary market without team paperwork, there will likely be some discussions with them as to why.

I guess that brings me back to the question I would be asking if I was a collector. That is, we know for a fact that there is a problem with bogus jerseys being offered in the secondary market. Specifically, A-Tier football players (quarterbacks, running backs and wide receivers) since that is where the money is being made. If it wasn’t a problem, I don’t think the FBI would be involved. With that said, what can we continue to do on our end to help prevent this problem from continuing? Among other things, I was suggesting that collectors should demand team paperwork on items coming from teams with memorabilia deals. In instances where team paperwork does not exist for these teams, I think collectors should ask every question possible before making a purchase. For example, I would be very skeptical of any hockey jersey being offered without a letter from teams that have a deal with MeiGray. We know right now the collecting community is being exposed to many supposed “game used” items that truly aren’t and I think that is one way to help protect collectors.

[JETEFAN]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

First of all, I want to say I think there have been some really great posts on this topic so far. I’d like to add a few more thoughts.

1) Relating to the Raiders items, I believe I mentioned in my original post that there would certainly be instances where some players may want to keep their jerseys as well as the fact that the Raiders may still offer a few jerseys through various Raider events.

2) Regarding the ones offered through the Raiders, I personally would think all of those items would also have Raider paperwork. I believe the same is true for other teams with memorabilia deals as well. For example, I do know the Redskins offer some items outside of the ones they offer to JO Sports. However, from what I can see the other ones coming from the Redskins also appear to all have Redskin paperwork. I personally think the fact they do provide team letters helps weed out the questionable ones that are being offered in the hobby. That is, I would expect any item coming through these various channels by the Redskins to have Redskin paperwork.

3) As for items kept by the players, I really couldn’t say with certainty where those items go. However, given the ones that are taken by star players for resale purposes are now often being sold with player LOAs, I personally don’t think all of the star football jerseys on the market without any paperwork are coming through that scenario. They again, I guess that is a matter of opinion.

4) As for whether or not a team would circumvent a contractual deal they have with a memorabilia company by offering items through unauthorized channels, I guess that is a matter of faith. There is really no way to absolutely refute the comment made here that it is possible. Of course anything is possible. The point I was making was that, based on the relationship we have established with the Raiders, I believe they intend to honor the contract. I can say the same for the Cowboys as I was in the meetings with them as well. And, if a number of star Raider jerseys begin to show up in the secondary market without team paperwork, there will likely be some discussions with them as to why.

I guess that brings me back to the question I would be asking if I was a collector. That is, we know for a fact that there is a problem with bogus jerseys being offered in the secondary market. Specifically, A-Tier football players (quarterbacks, running backs and wide receivers) since that is where the money is being made. If it wasn’t a problem, I don’t think the FBI would be involved. With that said, what can we continue to do on our end to help prevent this problem from continuing? Among other things, I was suggesting that collectors should demand team paperwork on items coming from teams with memorabilia deals. In instances where team paperwork does not exist for these teams, I think collectors should ask every question possible before making a purchase. For example, I would be very skeptical of any hockey jersey being offered without a letter from teams that have a deal with MeiGray. We know right now the collecting community is being exposed to many supposed “game used” items that truly aren’t and I think that is one way to help protect collectors.

Chris,

When you refer to "Bogus items being offered in the secondary market" what exactly are you refering to, use, real gamers, altered , etc? If you pick up an item from the secondary market and it is bogus, you didn't do your homework, don't buy a duck if it walks and barks like a dog, that holds true for items regardless of who's LOA is attached. Even the so called experts and "exclusive suppliers" have been linked to bogus items. Bottom line if all matches up and you check it out from all angles, an "LOA" and a hefty price tag does not make the item any more real or legit.

George

[yankees24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

what happens even if you get official paperwork but the jersey/equipment doesn't photo match?

[allstarsplus]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

First of all, I want to say I think there have been some really great posts on this topic so far. I’d like to add a few more thoughts.

We know right now the collecting community is being exposed to many supposed “game used” items that truly aren’t and I think that is one way to help protect collectors.

Chris - I think that if I knew the Raiders had a deal for all game used jerseys and someone was offering me a JaMarcus Russell without a team letter I would probably pass on it unless there was an overwhelming reason to believe it was real. I have taken the same tact with current Yankees jerseys and to-date have not purchased any without Steiner documentation.

If you recall, there have been many a heated discussion on non-Steiner Derek Jeter game used jerseys. The jerseys at hand were properly tagged but had no Steiner paperwork.

I checked today on the Redskins jerseys that Comcast had and there were Redskins letters with those particular jerseys.

With all that said, I have taken a different approach to Red Sox jerseys. There are so many legit looking Red Sox jerseys on the market without Steiner paperwork, that I feel comfortable purchasing those.

Bottomline is these exclusive "team" deals are only as good as the overall control they keep on the supply of game used jerseys.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

what happens even if you get official paperwork but the jersey/equipment doesn't photo match?

Look at the problem with Favre jerseys. If there are photo match problems, then the integrity of the whole system is called into question.

One of the problems with football jerseys is some players change jerseys at halftime so the LOAs should specify if it was worn for the whole game, 1st half, 2nd half, etc.