Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

again, i think the general idea of collectors demanding team paperwork, on items where exclusive team deals exist, entirely depends on the controls and track records of these teams/companies. as andrew lang stated, if you've got something as porous as the steiner/red sox deal, then why put much faith in a purportedly "exclusive" deal? if i can get numerous legit red sox gamers, from legal, legit sources, then steiner does not have an exclusive deal. they ought to stop bandying about the word in some effort put themselves forth as the only legit source when the reality is they aren't.
conversely, if a firm shows itself to have airtight controls and a stellar track record, then sure i'd probably say it's in the collectors best interests to confine themselves to such paperwork. sure jerseys will always escape but why bother with those shirts? why even take that 1% chance?

a few here have said that the shirt will, or won't, stand on its own and any paperwork is entirely meaningless. personally, i'm not so cocksure that i think i could always distinguish a washed-several-times-over game-issue and a gamer. i don't know, for example, what's going on over in that red sox clubhouse but 2005-2007 ortiz shirts flew out of there like LOAs out of lampson's typewriter. they were all properly tagged, properly numbered, properly sized, etc. yet ortiz couldn've have possibly worn all of them. photos of these shirts don't seem to show any red flags. of course, they came with no paperwork. were they just shirts ordered by ortiz' minions or some clubhouse staffer gone awol? did they sneak out of the majestic factory? who knows. i'd challenge warren or george to examine any of those ortiz shirts and conclusively say whether or not they were worn by ortiz. and i think that's the point here. if the shirts had come with iron-clad team paperwork, handled by a firm like meigray, then at least collectors would know the shirts genuinely came out of the red sox clubhouse.

if i ran such a firm, i believe the best system would be as follows:

1) review the first jersey order sheets at the start of the season
2) assign unique ID numbers to each jersey on the order sheets, even before they've been delivered
3) enter these IDs into a database
4) when the jerseys are delivered to the team, sew/glue on hard-to-counterfeit tags that feature these unique IDs. check off each unique ID
from the order sheet to what's actually been delivered. account for any discrepancies.
5) before each game, have the equipment manager disclose specifically which uniquely ID'd jerseys will be used in that game by each player
6) after the game, pick up the jerseys directly from the locker room and again each ID. change the status in the database from "issued" to "worn" and record the date/game/opponent. again, account for any discrepancies between what the equipment mgr said would be worn and what's found after the game.
7) take a photo of the jersey the day it becomes ready for sale, put it on the LOA.
8) make the database publically accessible.

i noticed the JO system seems to tag shirts after the game. why not pre-tag them as meigray does? that way, IF a shirt escapes the locker room at least it'll be tagged with a unique ID and checking the database will reveal some facts about it. pre-tag these things as soon as they're delivered so players can't pull switches and these things won't leave out the back untagged.

rudy.

[MichaelofSF]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

if i ran such a firm, i believe the best system would be as follows:

1) review the first jersey order sheets at the start of the season
2) assign unique ID numbers to each jersey on the order sheets, even before they've been delivered
3) enter these IDs into a database
4) when the jerseys are delivered to the team, sew/glue on hard-to-counterfeit tags that feature these unique IDs. check off each unique ID
from the order sheet to what's actually been delivered. account for any discrepancies.
5) before each game, have the equipment manager disclose specifically which uniquely ID'd jerseys will be used in that game by each player
6) after the game, pick up the jerseys directly from the locker room and again each ID. change the status in the database from "issued" to "worn" and record the date/game/opponent. again, account for any discrepancies between what the equipment mgr said would be worn and what's found after the game.
7) take a photo of the jersey the day it becomes ready for sale, put it on the LOA.
8) make the database publically accessible.

i noticed the JO system seems to tag shirts after the game. why not pre-tag them as meigray does? that way, IF a shirt escapes the locker room at least it'll be tagged with a unique ID and checking the database will reveal some facts about it. pre-tag these things as soon as they're delivered so players can't pull switches and these things won't leave out the back untagged.

rudy.

Sounds like a plan Rudy, that is what I would be 100% for! Would leave little room for all of the bad jerseys

[kingjammy24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

Sounds like a plan Rudy, that is what I would be 100% for! Would leave little room for all of the bad jerseys

on the eve of his NBA deal, i asked barry how his system deals with athletes taking their own shirts, even to the point, for example, where they'd remove the shirt after the game and toss it into the crowd. barry said all of the shirts are pre-tagged and entered into the database before even being put into the player's lockers so, in the event that a player would take his own shirt and perhaps toss it into the crowd, then at a minimum that shirt would still have a unique that could then be conclusively confirmed by meigray as to when it was issued for game play, etc.

if you really put some thought into this, you could make things very airtight even in the face of player shenanigans. if you record, for example, jersey #145 being placed into jamarcus russell's locker for a game on 12/12 and then after the game you go to collect the jersey and russell gives you an untagged shirt or one with a different ID, then you know something's gone wrong and can at least try to reconcile things. i just don't believe post-tagging is the way to go. way too many loopholes. every shirt should be assigned a unique ID on the order sheet and then physically tagged upon delivery to the team and those unique IDs ought to go into a database where they can then be tracked each and every step of the way from order to delivery to game issuance to game play, like a FedEx package.

if a shirt disappears anywhere along the way, then you'd notice the absence in the database because it was assigned a unique ID on the order sheet itself. what if a shirt is taken prior to game issuance? the post-tagging system would completely fail. with my system, if it was taken prior to game issuance, then you'd notice a missing ID in the database and could even flag it as "missing/stolen".

what if russell tosses his shirt into the crowd? woopsie, the post-tagging system fails again. someone catches it, tries to sell it, and because it has no tag JO Sports says it's not legit when in fact it is. if it was pre-tagged, you could still then record that specific jersey as having been tossed into the crowd after that specific game and mark it as "game used".

my prediction? noone will take my suggestions.

rudy.

[allstarsplus]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

i just don't believe post-tagging is the way to go. way too many loopholes. every shirt should be assigned a unique ID on the order sheet and then physically tagged upon delivery to the team and those unique IDs ought to go into a database where they can then be tracked each and every step of the way from order to delivery to game issuance to game play, like a FedEx package.


my prediction? noone will take my suggestions.

rudy.

Rudy - Great ideas and I for one like your suggestions!!!

I like the pre-tag idea along with a final exit #'d hologram where the exit hologram would show game of last use.

The MLB system is nice with a 3rd party hologram but it is a hologram that is essentially a date of last use then it is always guesswork when it was 1st used.

Your Fedex analogy is actually a great idea especially if the pre-tag was actually a barcoded strip it would be easy to do.

A more expensive system would be dugout based electronic transponders similar to those you get at toll booths for smart tags where you don't have to stop at the toll booth as it reads your electronic transponder as you pass by. The only problem I would see with that is the cost and whether the electronic tag built into the jersey could stand up to the rigors of the washer and dryer.

[indyred]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

Pretty sure most of teams JO Sports works with the team puts the game date tag in the jersey before the game. I know for the Redskins it seems like they do. Look real close on the bottom right of jerseys of Portis, Campbell, Cooley....Like in this photo of Cooley.

http://uspresswire.com/image/2359201

[kingjammy24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

Pretty sure most of teams JO Sports works with the team puts the game date tag in the jersey before the game. I know for the Redskins it seems like they do. Look real close on the bottom right of jerseys of Portis, Campbell, Cooley....Like in this photo of Cooley.
http://uspresswire.com/image/2359201

how is this possible if some jerseys have a single thermopatch that states the jersey was used for multiple games? wouldn't you only know it was used for multiple games after the fact? how could you put a thermopatch on a jersey with "thru" on it before the player was about to play 3 or 4 games? what do you do..hope to hell the player doesn't become injured in the first game thus rendering the thermopatch false or hope this (see front of jersey) doesn't happen in the first game?:

http://www.josportsco.com/view_product.asp?ProductID=921

"In addition, all the Raider jerseys will have a “ThermoPatch” placed on the inside of every jersey which indicates the player and the game (or games) in which the jersey was used. When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage."

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

"When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage."

if these tags are applied after the games and each jersey is only tagged once, how then does someone keep track of whether a jersey was used in multiple games?

thus far, i haven't seen a system on the market that beats meigrays'. meigray pre-tags those things before they even hit the locker room with unique IDs. from that point, everything can be tracked. if the jersey is lifted from the locker room before it's even used, it can be tracked. if it's thrown into the stands in the middle of a game, it can be tracked before the game even ends. barry sells hockey jerseys where he can tell you not only what game it was used in but what period (if applicable). i don't understand why, if someone doesn't have a superior system, they don't just don't adopt meigrays'. there's a great system out there and yet people seem to ignore it and continue tinkering with inferior ideas. why? it's like edison's come up with the lightbulb and years after people keep announcing they've just devised out a new torch.

andrew:

the barcode idea is great in that it removes the possibility of human error in recording/transcribing the unique IDs. however, if these are going into football jerseys, there's the risk of tearing or defacing the barcode, which would render it useless. the bar code would need to stay perfectly intact to be readable. if an alpha-numeric code is defaced, a person could probably still make out what the code was. the transponders would probably face similar concerns over durability.

rudy.

[indyred]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

how is this possible if some jerseys have a single thermopatch that states the jersey was used for multiple games? wouldn't you only know it was used for multiple games after the fact? how could you put a thermopatch on a jersey with "thru" on it before the player was about to play 3 or 4 games? what do you do..hope to hell the player doesn't become injured in the first game thus rendering the thermopatch false or hope this (see front of jersey) doesn't happen in the first game?:

http://www.josportsco.com/view_product.asp?ProductID=921

"In addition, all the Raider jerseys will have a “ThermoPatch” placed on the inside of every jersey which indicates the player and the game (or games) in which the jersey was used. When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage."

rudy.

I don't think the Redskins jerseys are used in multiple games. They have the tags in them before the game, it's easy to see the tag in pictures of the marketed guys jerseys from certain games.

Have no idea how the thru games tag works. But what would be so bad if the jersey game date patch thru is put on before the first game you know he is playing in. He gets hurt and doesn't suit up the next game. Wouldn't be that hard to figure out he used it in the first game and oviously didn't in the second game. Like how Meigray tags the jersey before it is used and you can look up the dates when each set was worn. Doesn't mean the player played in all those games. Just have to look up those games box scores and see what games the player was in. Some jerseys may have been used in all games that set, some only one.
Maybe Jo Sports will do a population report type thing on the thru game jerseys. Where you can look up and see when exactly it was worn or when player had 2 jerseys in a set ect.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

"But what would be so bad if the jersey game date patch thru is put on before the first game you know he is playing in. He gets hurt and doesn't suit up the next game. Wouldn't be that hard to figure out he used it in the first game and oviously didn't in the second game."

1) this isn't a matter of what's hard to figure out. it's a matter of what the tag states. chris stated "When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage". why should i have to figure anything out when JO Sports is supposed to be on the case? this isn't rocket science. they're tracking the things and yet i have to play detective on each shirt and see if the tag makes sense?

2) if the jersey was ripped beyond repair, as the jamarcus russell shirt i linked to was, then there's no way of knowing anything even from boxscores. a boxscore doesn't tell you when a jersey was ripped and put out of commission.

3) jerseys are kept, traded, and sold for decades. in 2040, someone acquires a 2007 redskins shirt that states it was worn in multiple games and they've got to go look up the boxscore 33 years after the fact?

this is nonsensical. why not simply use a unique ID and record the games in a database like anyone living in the 21st century would? this idea of putting a "worn in multiple games" tag in a jersey BEFORE it was actually worn in multiple games is ludicrous. it completely flies in the face of common sense.

"Like how Meigray tags the jersey before it is used and you can look up the dates when each set was worn. Doesn't mean the player played in all those games. Just have to look up those games box scores and see what games the player was in. Some jerseys may have been used in all games that set, some only one."

meigray tags them with IDs, not dates, not specific games. an ID can correlate to anything. a single ID can correlate to various pieces of different information. that's the beauty of it. a date can only correlate to a date.

"Maybe Jo Sports will do a population report type thing on the thru game jerseys. Where you can look up and see when exactly it was worn or when player had 2 jerseys in a set ect."

why make it so unnecessarily complicated? pre-tag the jerseys with predictions of what games we think they might be worn in and then we can do a population report afterwards and collectors can look up boxscores 10 years after the fact and put all the pieces together for themselves. brilliant. very, very efficient system. why would anyone do this when there's a clean, simple, FedEx-like system they could use instead? each one is pre-tagged with a unique ID and as it moves through the process from order to delivery to issuance to use, you simply record each event in a public database. no need for collectors to do any work at all. when they get a jersey, they can go to the website, type in the unique ID, see when it was ordered, delivered, issued and exactly what games it was used in and print out the results for a hard copy. if you've got a poor system and a good system, why choose the poor system?

anyway, we can talk about how we think it works all day long but i guess chris cavalier will have to come on and fill in the details. pre-tagging jerseys with "predicted" games they might be used in has honestly got to be one of the most bizarre, illogical ideas i've heard. if that's what's going on, then i'd rather have them post-tagged with the truth, rather than pre-tagged with predictions and left for collectors to piece together via boxscores and population reports.

rudy.

[indyred]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

Does anyone own one of these thru tag jerseys? I've only seen Redskins and Bears jerseys that JO has sold. They just have the game that it was used in tag and don't use the thru tag. So their is no issue of what game it was used in.
I do know JO puts own serial hologram on the game date tag and both the JO COA and team COA state when the jersey was worn.
I wonder if the thru tag jerseys letters say the exact game dates the jersey was used. This would clear up any issues of if the jersey was just used one, twice ect. So you don't have to figure out a thing on your own. Or in cases where a jersey is torn up the COA says worn in the first half of whatever game. Maybe they should just label jerseys with set 1, set 2 ect and clear up the thru problem, where people will think it automaticaly means it was worn in the thru game on the tag.

No question we all would like to see some Fed Ex system. Maybe some day there will be a simple system in place. Where tamper proof tags are scanned and a accurate data base is on the net with all records of when each jersey was in play. I'm sure we would still find problems in that chain as well. Isn't the prova tag like that, where it is some kind of micro chip? Never owned a jersey from them. MLB has the data base and we all know how well that thing works.

I'm done with thru tag talk, I guess I could really care less about the term. I can see where it makes things difficult. Maybe this will spark some better wording on tags.

[G1X]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

I think that I may have posted this before, but I will do so again as it is relevant to this topic. In 2006 and 2007, the Washington Redskins picked 16 players each year as their "marquee" players (Portis, Samuels, Cooley, etc.) who wore a new jersey each game. These jerseys are tagged and coded as mentioned in a previous post. The rest of the players were not wearing a new jersey each week, and to my knowledge, the jerseys of these "common" players are not tagged and coded.

In the case where I made a small bulk buy from the team's front office in March 2008 that consisted of their "throwback" helmets from 2002 and 2003 plus a small number of jerseys from 2004 through 2006, I did not request any paperwork. I also did not request any paperwork when I made a small bulk buy from the Eagles' front office in December 2006 (consisting mostly of jerseys from the 2005 season).

In both purchases, there were only a couple of star players involved. Since most of my customers do not demand paperwork, I saw no need to pursue the issue. From my observations as both a collector and dealer, most football uniform collectors seem to not be concerned with paperwork for "common" players as they trust their own knowledge and expertise.

As a dealer, I avoid selling super star jerseys for a variety of reasons. However, if it was my marketing strategy to pursue star players from NFL teams, I would insist on team paperwork for those jerseys for obvious reasons.

My point is that legitimate stuff gets out without paperwork, and if the price is right, those jerseys will sell. It all depends on each collector's comfort level. For those collectors who don't feel comfortable, they can pay the higher price for the piece of paper and peace of mind.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL jerseys

[beavisrules]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

There are some great posts and ideas in this thread. I think that for star players, there should be a more definitive tagging/tracking system, and a lot of the ideas noted in here make sense. The pre-use tagging is a great idea that Meigray implemented. I think the fact that the star players have 16 jerseys (or more) a year is absolutely ridiculous, but that's just my opinion, and not relevant to this thread.

Since I collect more commons than superstars, I agree with Mark that typically I could care less if it comes with paperwork, because the amount of work it would take to fake a common is cost-prohibitive in most cases. If it comes with paperwork, great, a bonus; but not required from my standpoint with rare exception.

However, to be honest, I wish all jerseys (commons included) did simply have a tag sewn in when team issued just like Meigray does. The Bucs equipment manager was in another thread saying all jerseys ordered were carefully inventoried and accounted for. Great - then slap a tag on each jersey, enter it in a basic database, and there you go - a fairly decent system for all in even this basic of form if nothing else.

And let me give you an example of when common tagging is very important (if possible) - commons who become significant stars. I'll give examples - Bertrand Berry, Tony Romo, and any other low draft picks or undrafted free agents who end up doing well. Coming into the NFL, neither of these guys were given much thought - then, the right opportunity came along, and they are now well known players who's jerseys command a premium. However, their early jerseys were viewed essentially as relative commons prior to this, and are very few and far between - tagging on those jerseys would have been ideal to preserve the scarcity of these early jerseys (they weren't numbering 16 jerseys per year initially, that's for sure).

Just my two cents.

[jppopma]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

Rudy,

I have seen some universities that will use the barcoding to keep track of their inventory. For example, some of the Michigan State jerseys that I have include a thick plastic barcode sticker on the inner tail. I grabbed one of the jerseys and see that it has the barcode as well as a printed inventory number on it. While it looks to have some wear and tear on the barcode, my guess is that it would still work if scanned.

Maybe some of these schools would be able to shed a little better light on their tagging methods and what problems they may have encountered with barcoding.

Keep it up man,

John

[josportsco]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

First of all I want to thank everyone for the posts. This is a very good post and informative. As for J.O. Sports, Inc. we deal strictly in modern football so this post I am making is in regards to modern football. Let me address the identification issue. We use a ThermoPatch that is heat pressed into the inside tail of the jerseys. This ThermoPatch is nearly impossible to remove. On the ThermoPatch we supply the buyer with as much information about the particular jersey: Name of player, date(s) worn, opponent, web address. Also supplied is the hologram which matches the hologram on the COA. This is an identification process we supply on all of our jerseys that we obtain through team and/or players. I have read Rudy’s post regarding his identification ideas and it is a great idea. Although to process the idea you have to have total team support from top to bottom and the man power to support. Talking and dealing with the teams, this is a process is difficult to implement to every team we deal with. As for the Redskins, they have also implemented the ThermoPatch process. They apply the patch to all of their jerseys prior to use. Of note: we do have a database identifying every jersey we have certified and patched.
Anyway, to get back on topic regarding team paperwork. I think what Chris is mostly talking about is should collectors purchase modern game worn football jerseys with team paperwork? Although there have been several different topics regarding the purchase of jerseys with team paperwork. You can dispute either way. What the topic is directed more towards the star players. As a collector you should feel more secure in the purchase of an Adrian Peterson with Vikings/JO paperwork rather than the one’s in auction house that supply their own or third party paperwork. I have personally seen at least 4 Peterson’s within the last 2 years offered for sale or auction that was accompanied without any or third party paperwork. So the question is would you feel more secure purchasing those 4 at around $1000-$1500 or one for $5000+ with Vikings paperwork? Recently GUU/JO Sports have secured a team deal with the Raiders. With that being said we offer guys like McFadden down to R. Brown all are accompanied with Raiders-GUU/JO Sports paperwork with identifiers and unwashed. Although I have not seen any Raiders merchandise in the open market ask yourself: If you are offered a McFadden via personal deal or auction without the Raiders-GUU/JO Sports paperwork and identifiers would you feel comfortable in the purchase? This brings us to the next issue. How do jerseys make it to the open market? Are jerseys sold out of the “back door”? Some may be. Do players take their jerseys and market them? Yes some do. With this being said I can only answer for josportsco. I will break it down per team. Vikings/ Bears/ Raiders- WE ARE EXCLUSIVE. The teams do have the right to hold some (very minimal) inventory to sell through their charity, community, etc. This is why you will see 1 Peterson possibly make it to NFL Auctions, 1 Russell make it to their charity etc. Redskins- We are allotted X amount of jerseys and they hold the right to sell jerseys via charity and any other sources they chose. We have built the cooperation with our teams to be involved in the jersey ordering. WE KNOW EXACTLY HOW MANY JERSEYS ARE ORDERED PER PLAYER FOR VAROIUS TEAMS. So now ask yourself again: Would you feel comfortable in the purchase of a Peterson or McFadden without the team paperwork? Let’s move to the player portion. Yes, some players take their jerseys and market them. I think our company answers that question in itself. We have done a deal with Westbrook, McNabb, Holmes etc. BUT josportsco will not do a player deal without a COA signed by that particular player. The way the market is today josportsco has changed its buying and selling habits. We rarely purchase or sell anything without the team or player paperwork. We try to photo match everything and purchase unwashed when we can. Mark Hayne mentioned bulk buys without team paperwork. I personally would feel comfortable in purchasing from Mark but if josportsco is to purchase equipment from the teams we require the team paperwork to accompany the merchandise to help the security of the buyer especially if it is washed.
[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']As for the pricing what we are trying to build is a source for the collector to obtain unquestionable merchandise for their favorite team or player. These deals are not cheap!! There for we have to offer such merchandise at said prices. It is funny to me that collectors in one breath complain about bogus merchandise then in the same breath complain that when you find good merchandise the prices are too high. We continue to keep our price integrity. We have collectors that are appreciative that we can supply them with these modern relics and understand the market and hobby and have no problem spending the money that true game worn jerseys should command. I commend GUU and the members that share their information. I hope this helps and can always be reached at jarrod@josportsco.com[/font]

[byergo]

Re: Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

From a cursory glance the luxury of getting an item with team paperwork is a VERY expensive proposition. One that certainly will leave almost 100% of buyers financially buried into an item where they will not only never sell for a profit, but likely take a huge financial beating should they decide to part with the item later. Just my opinion...