Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

[byergo]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Agree 100% about Mattingly. I don't like the Yankees, but Donnie Baseball was one of my favorite players. You just can't hardly be a baseball fan who followed the game back then and not like Don Mattingly and appreciate the way he played the game. Anyone would be lucky to own a Mattingly gamer.

[JETEFAN]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

good responses and i agree with most of them. interesting to see there's pretty much a consensus of who's undervalued. great underpriced examples of mcgriff (493 clean HRs!), winfield, and especially raines who spent his entire career underrated.

also completely agree with the overpriced examples of mattingly ($2k+ for a bat of a non-HOFer who didn't set any records?) and ripken. boggs, gwynn, and puckett (all HOF'ers, all 3000-hit members) were what mattingly was supposed to be had he not crapped out so early and yet mattingly's bats are worth twice what boggs', gwynns', and pucketts are worth. supply explains some of it but i don't see a lot of nice early-career boggs, gwynns, or winfields flying around. i don't even see a lot of nice early career mcgriffs around and his bats go for peanuts. who knew hitting 493 clean HRs would be worth so little.

while i agree that the HR has been devalued ever since bonds made a complete mockery of it and hit 73 (73! very subtle barry! he may as well have hit 120) but you'd think that'd place an even bigger premium on clean sluggers like griffey, mcgriff, and thomas and it hasn't really. ripken and brett were never really HR guys and their items go for more than sluggers like mcgriff and thomas. (ripken still confuses me. small-market team, sub-500 HRs, sub-.300 hitter, good supply of his bats floating around and i never quite understood the excitement behind a consecutive-game streak).

mcgwire also confuses me. at one point, sosa was very popular (had his own pepsi commercials!) yet his popularity completely died out. on the other hand, despite everyone believing that mcgwire juiced it from beginning to end, he's still got a large enough fan base to support these high prices? at this point, it's becoming apparent that mcgwire is not getting into the HOF. yet his values are still at HOF prices. every other big-name steroid star was kicked to the curb, except mcgwire. his bats may be in relative short supply but does that matter if the majority of his career has one huge asterisk? solid bonds gamers are in short supply and folks couldn't care less. jeff kranz took a bath when he unloaded his bonds items. yet mcgwire juiced all he wanted and it doesn't really seem to have affected his collectability. maybe fans don't care as much about steroids as they let on? maybe if you're a friendly, HR-hitting, elbow-basher you'll get a free pass?

it seems popularity plays a huge role. you can miss the HOF and juice it your entire career but if you somehow manage to remain popular, then your items will be worth more than your peers who made the HOF and didn't juice it. crazy. sounds like collectors might be better off looking at popularity than stats.

rudy.

Unless someone is only into this hobby for investment purposes only, records and how good of a player is way down on the totem pole as far as value. I'm pretty sure that everyone on this forum collects what they do because they like the player. Sure being good helps but player likability and popularity to me is the primary factor. The more the player is liked, the more people collect their stuff, the more people collect their stuff, the more scarce it becomes, the more scarce it becomes, the higher the price! Mattingly, though many feel overpriced is a perfect example, numbers very comparable to Puckett so he was a damn good player, gave you 100 % every time out and was the best player in the universe for a period of 3 or 4 years. bats are almost impossible to find cause everyone wants one, thus the price....simple, I'll take 10 more bats please...." Bottom line, Donnie is better liked than probably most players mentioned on this thread solely for their numbers!!! My humble opinion..

George

[Nathan]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Suave -

You hit the Nail on the Head - Look at 'Sid the Kid' Crosby in the NHL... he was so hyped (and he hasn't disappointed), but he and his Dad hatched a GREAT Rookie plan - NEW jersey EVERY game - and he and his Dad kept EVERY Jersey and Every stick and started their own 'memorabilia' business...

A lot of rookies and their agents are cashing in...

- Chris

I'm not sure where you're getting this information from. Joe Tomon (J&J Distributing) has a contract with the Penguins to get their game jersey sets, including a rookie year set 1 white that was photomatched to multiple games.

In addition, hockey sticks are made of a graphite/carbon fiber composite; breakage is much more common with hockey sticks than with baseball bats. No player in his right mind is going to relinquish a stick that has great feel to make a few bucks. Heck, Mike Green of Washington just broke the record for consecutive games with a goal by a defenseman and promptly told the Hockey Hall of Fame to sit on it when they requested his stick....he used the same one for all those games and kept raving about how it was the best he ever used.

[skyking26]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

I had lamented not long ago to some friends that I did not believe what I was personally witnessing in the hobby marketplace even remotely resembles a said recession. Again today on ebay I had my butt kicked by buyers whom presumably live at Fort Knox.

All that said, a friend once said to me, "this is a very small hobby." I get his point. Now and then like today I make a deal that is fair and is a nice addition to my collection. Thanks to those that have recently assisted. It's better dealing with those you know sometimes than competing against these clique guys and their deep wallets.

RK

[Birdbats]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Those items were mostly from mastro auction ending Feb25 and 26. I skimmed through and posted prices from guys mentioned in the thread.

Thanks for pointing us in the right direction. That McGwire bat is no good. Legit bat, but almost certainly not used by Mark. That explains its low price. The Sosa bat is very nice.

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Yankwood-
Hope it's a joke on the Baines bats. He's actually on my want list... I'll take him or Raines off your hands.

I had Baines on my list for a while too. Found a gorgeous hammered one and bid and won it. They I found out that it was listed in error and had already been sold.

I did snag a Raines though....and for what I consider a ridiculously low price for a future HOF

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

I own only one Sammy Sosa bat......
I paid $6,000.00 for it.

May I just say sir, that you have one giant, nay..GIGANTIC set of stones. I dont think that I could ever bring myself to pay 6K for a bat unless it was Ruth or Gehrig or the like.

To each his own, as long as it makes you happy.

[Trublubrucru]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Hey guys,

Those items were mostly from mastro auction ending Feb25 and 26. I skimmed through and posted prices from guys mentioned in the thread.

Jeff

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Without having the old catalogs, I don't know how many legit gamers of Mac and Sosa were sold during 1998 and 1999, but I suspect there weren't many because it takes a little while for game-used items to filter into the hobby. I know a collector who says the Cubs retail store sold Sosa bats for $800 around that time; he bought 10 of them (and still has them).

I started archiving bat auction results in 2000, so I went back and took a look at auction prices from 2000-2003 (Mastro and Leland's), when prices were still high for both players.

I found four 1998 Sosa bats auctioned during that period. They sold from $949 to $1,254 and the average was $1,154.

I found six pre-1998 bats. They sold from $757 to $1,531 and the average was $978.

I found 16 post-1998 bats. Included among these was the bat used for HR #498 that was cut up on ESPN and examined for cork. It sold for $7,259. Also included was a documented HR bat, #63 from 1999 -- it sold for $3,342. Excluding these two bats, the highest price was $2,040 and the lowest was $643. The average for all 16 bats was $1,552; the average excluding the two "special" bats was $1,017.

Overall, the average price of all 26 bats was $1,358. Thirteen of those bats sold for less than $1,000, 13 sold for more. If you throw out the two "special" bats, the average price for 24 bats was $1,030.

Granted, auction values are influenced by many factors, such as use, condition, autographs, etc. I'm assuming these all were legit Sosa bats, which could be naive considering most McGwire bats sold in these auctions didn't demonstrate appropriate Mac characteristics. I also don't have any information on Sosa bats that were auctioned at Chicago-area charity events; those types of auctions always attract unusually high prices.

In the end, though, I think it's fair to say a collector could find a Sosa bat for $1,000 during those "peak" years when people were paying 3-4 times that much for legit Mac gamers.

Funny thing is......No matter how this whole steroid era thing plays out (who's career gets tarnished, what end result Bud "the GEEK" Selig seeks as proper recourse to the admitted or confessed cheaters/users, whether records are ultimately asterisked or removed from the books, etc.).....I still feel the '98 home run race will live in infamy as a very exciting re-invigorating time in baseball history. Add to that fact that both Mark McGwire AND Sammy Sosa were extremely likeable and popular players.....I just think their game-used items will always hold their value, and may even creep back up in time.

That said, here's my full diclosure:

I own only one Sammy Sosa bat. It was his blonde Louisville Slugger used to hit his career home run #536 (which tied him with the Mick on the All0Time home run list). It's signed and inscribed by him as such. Has the big bulbus taped knob......just a whole lot of desirable aspects to it.

I paid $6,000.00 for it. I have absolutely no regrets and I believe I didn't over-pay for it. It is likely Sammy hit his over-600 home runs without using PED's? IMHO, no. But he will forever be one of the two folk-lore participants in that magical 1998 season, however fraud-latent it was. It was still a part of history, and an amazingly fun time in baseball.

As a baseball purist, historian, and fan of the game and proponent in keeping it right, I realize I am over the line in hypocracy taking this stance. But somehow, the guys who followed these two, and used to "match-up" or in the case of Bonds, "better" them because he saw himself as better than they were, just stink the joint up. It then wasn't about the game anymore.....it was about how great they could make themselves look, and how much money and fame they could achieve. The ruins that came with it has led to the strong movement (at least in us baseball purists and fans) to clean up the game.

But the historic battle of 1998 will always have a positive aspect to it. It brought people back to the game.......as wrong as it may have been. So to me, as a baseball fan and collector, not owning a piece from one of the two participants is just missing out on a large part of the history of the game. And, I'm happy with the one piece of Sammy's I do own.

[suave1477]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Do you have links to these auctions? It could be those prices were realized because the items were questionable. I'd love to see them. Thanks.

I was actually thinking the same thing.

Can I also see those links?

suave1477@yahoo.com

[Birdbats]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Just a note on some recent auctions this past week

94 McGwire A's road jersey $ 600
98 Mac Rawlings bat $ 400
01 Sosa Hr bat $ 350
89-93 Palmeiro bat $ 67

yet

92-95 Mattingly bat $850
2007 Pujols bat $1000

Do you have links to these auctions? It could be those prices were realized because the items were questionable. I'd love to see them. Thanks.

[Trublubrucru]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Just a note on some recent auctions this past week

94 McGwire A's road jersey $ 600
98 Mac Rawlings bat $ 400
01 Sosa Hr bat $ 350
89-93 Palmeiro bat $ 67

yet

92-95 Mattingly bat $850
2007 Pujols bat $1000

The steriods scandel is far from over, and players caught up in it will have big affects on their stuff. Overall in the hobby, the economy has had put more sellers out there, and the overpriced stuff will come down. The market will correct itself just like other hobbies and investments (coins,antiques,muscle cars). I have personally obtained 14 bats i've been looking for in just the last three months, some I have been looking for many years. I'm curious to see how the next year's economy will affect the overpricing in the hobby. Jeff

[skyking26]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

I understand entirely. But by one view, it might not matter. If a Bentley and a Rolls are the same in your hypothetical, then why does the Rolls command twice the price? Even by your hypothetical facts, the guy that wants the Rolls has to pay the Rolls price and can't pay half the price just because the Bentley goes for half.

If a Brett goes for $1,000 and a Yount goes for $500, then it's just as fair to say that the Brett goes for twice as much rather than that they're the same and one is either over or under priced. Because they're not the same. Try buying the $1,000 Brett for the half price of the Yount and you'll find out. Something is distinguishing the prices of those two bats. If it's not the player stats, it might be the popularity of one player over another.

I collect Mets stuff. If I collected the KC Royals, I'd be paying less than half price for comparable stuff. It doesn't help at all to point out that I should pay less for that Met Saberhagen jersey being offered because his Royals jerseys are cheaper and that he had his best years in KC.

Anyway, this is all philosophical. Because if you want the item, you gotta pay the price, even if it is over priced. The only other option would be not to buy.

In 16 years Kingman played in SF, NYM, CHINL, OAK, (NYY/CAL/SD) all over that period. Anything associated with his Met or Yankee years is over the top in price. Last year many items became available. Sure, some of the SF jerseys went quick purely out of vintage interest, but the Mets/Yanks stuff always commands the interest and that is always reflected in price. While a vintage 71-74 Giants helmet could be had for sale $1200...........I know the Yankees helmet went close to $3K as did the Yanks helmet that was worn for 8 days.

I certainly unstand that NY thing. To be a NY collector means your pocket needs to be alot deeper. Kingman's never been a overly popular guy more or less, but people tend to remember those Met years. Oakland? Forget it. Nobody cares. I think Oakland jerseys are cool, but people in general could care less. McGwire played in STL and Oakland. Granted he did all the records in STL, but I'm sure if you removed that people would still remember those STL years, not the Oakland. As spotlight un-friendly as Kingman and McGwire both were, I'm sure they enjoyed the animinity(sp) of Oakland in trenchcoat and sunglasses.

[metsmetsmets]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

quick comment to answer this question: i meant underpriced and overpriced relative to other players of equal stats. eg: (hypothetical) paying $1000 for a brett bat but only $500 for a yount. my entire point was to compare similar players with wildely disparate prices. to keep with your rolls royce example, it has nothing to do with what you might spend or are able to spend. a rolls royce, at a $100k, would be overpriced IF you could buy a similarly equipped bentley at $50k. the two cars would be extremely similar in every aspect, including prestige, except for the price which would make it an oddity. this is my entire point.

rudy.

I understand entirely. But by one view, it might not matter. If a Bentley and a Rolls are the same in your hypothetical, then why does the Rolls command twice the price? Even by your hypothetical facts, the guy that wants the Rolls has to pay the Rolls price and can't pay half the price just because the Bentley goes for half.

If a Brett goes for $1,000 and a Yount goes for $500, then it's just as fair to say that the Brett goes for twice as much rather than that they're the same and one is either over or under priced. Because they're not the same. Try buying the $1,000 Brett for the half price of the Yount and you'll find out. Something is distinguishing the prices of those two bats. If it's not the player stats, it might be the popularity of one player over another.

I collect Mets stuff. If I collected the KC Royals, I'd be paying less than half price for comparable stuff. It doesn't help at all to point out that I should pay less for that Met Saberhagen jersey being offered because his Royals jerseys are cheaper and that he had his best years in KC.

Anyway, this is all philosophical. Because if you want the item, you gotta pay the price, even if it is over priced. The only other option would be not to buy.

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Yankwood-
Hope it's a joke on the Baines bats. He's actually on my want list... I'll take him or Raines off your hands.

I agree Brett is overpriced. Same on Mattingly...

I have a black/natural Baines Cooper bat with tremendous use, if you're interested. Let me know.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com