Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
Without having the old catalogs, I don't know how many legit gamers of Mac and Sosa were sold during 1998 and 1999, but I suspect there weren't many because it takes a little while for game-used items to filter into the hobby. I know a collector who says the Cubs retail store sold Sosa bats for $800 around that time; he bought 10 of them (and still has them).
I started archiving bat auction results in 2000, so I went back and took a look at auction prices from 2000-2003 (Mastro and Leland's), when prices were still high for both players.
I found four 1998 Sosa bats auctioned during that period. They sold from $949 to $1,254 and the average was $1,154.
I found six pre-1998 bats. They sold from $757 to $1,531 and the average was $978.
I found 16 post-1998 bats. Included among these was the bat used for HR #498 that was cut up on ESPN and examined for cork. It sold for $7,259. Also included was a documented HR bat, #63 from 1999 -- it sold for $3,342. Excluding these two bats, the highest price was $2,040 and the lowest was $643. The average for all 16 bats was $1,552; the average excluding the two "special" bats was $1,017.
Overall, the average price of all 26 bats was $1,358. Thirteen of those bats sold for less than $1,000, 13 sold for more. If you throw out the two "special" bats, the average price for 24 bats was $1,030.
Granted, auction values are influenced by many factors, such as use, condition, autographs, etc. I'm assuming these all were legit Sosa bats, which could be naive considering most McGwire bats sold in these auctions didn't demonstrate appropriate Mac characteristics. I also don't have any information on Sosa bats that were auctioned at Chicago-area charity events; those types of auctions always attract unusually high prices.
In the end, though, I think it's fair to say a collector could find a Sosa bat for $1,000 during those "peak" years when people were paying 3-4 times that much for legit Mac gamers.
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Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
Rudy, excellent points the whole way around. I am not sure what it is or was about Cal that changed everything. I will say that from my own perspective, I think that for whatever reason that the streak galvanized many, many people across this country and that forever changed the way Cal was viewed. He was a very popular player prior to him breaking Lou's record but after that, it seemed like this really took him to a whole new level. While McGwire/Sosa are largely portrayed as having "saved baseball" after the 94 strike, I know that many many people kind of came back to the game during those couple of days in Sept. of 95 due to its magical and historical significance.
In one sense it is a very strange record in that it may be the only one that you could actually circle on the calendar at the beginning of the year and say this is the day. Although we know when a player is approaching 500 homers, 3000 hits, 755 or whatever your record is, we don't know when the player will get those marks. All the fanfare that led up to that Sept. 6, 1995 because it could be planned and the subsequent lap around the field the 21 minute standing ovation, all the pomp and circumstance have not and largely cannot be duplicated.
While Ozzie certainly was an icon to St. Louis he also did not play his entire career with one team like Cal and Tony Gwynn did for instance. I think it is a combination of factors with Cal. He played his whole career for one organization, he was born and raised in the area, his father was the heart and soul of the "Oriole Way" back in the days when Baltimore was a very relevant and feared team, having spent thirty plus years in the Orioles organization. Cal broke a record that whatever you regard in terms of its significance, was said to be unbreakable. One of only a handful of records that truly were or are unbreakable such as 511 career wins. He played with class and very few bad things to my knowledge have ever been said about him. He was very selfless in signing autographs for everyone game after game, year after year. The one negative that I have ever heard is that he was selfish for wanting to stay in the lineup. I tend to take the same approach at my jobs he took with his I think. If you have someone better let them do my job but I am the best at what I do and when that day comes that I am not, then replace me with someone better.
Cal was never the best hitter, never the best fielder, never the best power hitter, but then again, he must have really been a fan favorite everywhere to be elected to 19 all-star games. The fact that he did win 2 MVP awards is not too shabby either. I think it is more or less an example of a fairy tale story that often does not really happen in sports or elsewhere. About the only thing that I think could have topped what he did was if either the Orioles were more competitive over his years in Baltimore and or he would have homered in his final at bat a la Ted Williams.
In terms of Ripken Jersey's, you are right on the money, I would even say 93 - 01's are just everywhere. If Cal actually wore all the jersey's reported to be his by sellers, he would have been changing jersey's every other inning in every game of his career and giving them away. I believe you are right, Ripken jersey's are so often faked because of all of the stars of the 80's 90's etc. his jersey's are one of the highest selling premiums out there. I believe that the true collector that knows what to look for by and large can spot the fakes and as a result most of these go untouched or without any real sales figures.Leave a comment:
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Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
Thome is one of those guys like Sosa, I'll get back to that shortly.
First of all you asked about the Ripken's of regional areas: I give you Jim Thome. Playing in Cleveland, he was a God-like iconic figure there for his tenure with Indians. He held out when free agency came hoping to sign, and Indians brass wanted to sign him, but Philly offered a better deal. When it comes down to it, Jim is no different than anybody else. He has a young family and baseball careers are short. $$ matters. He gave Cleveland every opportunity to match it. How fickle that there are fans that now boo him when he comes in as a White Sox player. In Philly, ask anyone, he was revered. Try an locate ANY Philly Thome item... They are in collections and will stay there. In Chicago he is loved....
The point of all this? Each region he goes to he is highly respected. In my opinion, when he hit #500 he did it quietly. When he hits #600 not many will care. He is baseballs next Sammy Sosa, in that he is respected, but he just is not the household name. The interest level in his stuff is very low. Always has been. ZIf he'd have played in NY, doubtful that would be the case...Leave a comment:
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Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
hey brett,
very good posts on ripken and mcgwire. i think they pretty much fully explain ripken and mcgwire values. moreso, i think they also explain ripken and mcgwires' popularity. while ripken, for me, wasn't terribly electric to watch, he did stand out from his superstar peers in terms of the wholesome way he conducted himself on and off the field. during ripken's time, there were better hitters, more powerful hitters, and better fielders but for various reasons they didn't connect with fans the way that ripken apparently did.
while i understand ripken's appeal and the consequent effect on his items, weren't there other "regional ripkens" (players who held immense, deep-seated appeal in a given region) whose items are as rare and still far cheaper? ozzie smith? another very wholesome, clean-cut guy who played the game very well and play his entire career in a baseball-crazy town. his shirts aren't common yet they still don't command ripken prices.
in terms of items, of all the "superstar" jerseys from ripken's time period, the most jerseys i've ever seen from a single player have been ripkens'. you say that the overwhelming majority of those are fake and that's likely true. i'm just saying that over the past 10 yrs, if you looked at the supply of 90s superstar jerseys, ripken would definitely be in the top 2 or 3 and i don't even know who the others would be. i've seen more ripkens than griffeys and griffey was a memorabilia machine. that said, i also believe that ripken jerseys are the most frequently faked/doctored. the '95-'01 timeframe being responsible for the majority of them.
so ultimately, if it's popularity, rather than stats, that really supports prices who of today's players are going to be the overpriced/underpriced guys of tomorrow? arod and manny have to be two of the most unpopular guys around despite having incredible stats. no long term values for them? the dodgers haven't even signed him yet and already the entire city is disgusted with him. the guy brought a world series to boston, a city that'd been waiting for 86 years, and they still couldn't wait for him to leave!
arod also couldn't be more unpopular. i'm sure he'll set some records but the reaction will probably be as disinterested as when bonds hit 73. on the other hand, jeter could run for mayor of nyc despite many thinking he's an overrated player. in 2020 will jeter prices still be holding while manny's prices sank because of how unpopular he was?
who are the ripkens of today? the guys who aren't going to set any records but whose pieces will hold solid based mainly on their immense, long-term popularity? while there are lots of great players today, there don't really seem to be any that have the immense appeal that ripken did.
and how did sosa go from being beloved by a massive fanbase to competely forgotten? he hit over 600. he was 1/2 of the magical summer of '98. he played in a baseball-crazy town. technically he didn't lie..he just forgot how to speak english. mcgwire's still got a strong following but i don't think there's a single sosa fan left out there.
rudy.Leave a comment:
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Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
That's some serious man-love.The reasons Bo Jackson items bring top dollar: he is revered all over the country--particularly Alabama, KC, Oakland/LA, Chicago, Anaheim, (note: LA and Chicago are the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the US = HUGE fan base), his GU items are scarce, many consider him to be the greatest athlete ever, and he did it CLEAN.
Watch this amazing highlight reel and let me know who is as exciting to watch as Bo?:
Trying to compare another mere mortal to Bo is akin to comparing them to Superman. They always fail in comparison. No other athlete is compared to Bo because who else can run a 4.19 forty, and hit Ruthian homeruns? It would be laughable. Even when stacked up against HOF'ers and supposedly great athletes Bo makes them look like chumps. There are plenty of players where you have to think to yourself: "What is their most memorable/remarkable play?" What did they do that displayed greatness?" For Bo the reverse is true: "Which of this never ending highlight reel of freakish, mind-blowing plays should I pick?"
His body of work is not just 4 years in the NFL and 8 years in MLB (playing two professional sports at the same time nonetheless), but also 4 years of completely dominating D-I football winning the Heisman Trophy and entry to the Collegiate Football HOF, as well as amazing feats in track and baseball. His sports marketing acomplishments and pop culture significance are icing on the cake.
Some collectors are more into the professional athlete "lifetime achievement" category, while some appreciate the amazing awe inspiring athlete.
On the eighth day God created Bo Jackson.Leave a comment:
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Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
While McGwire has completely faded out of the public eye and has become somewhat of a recluse over the past eight years or so, he was never necesaarily the type of person who thumbed their nose at the media and fans. I think McGwire values his privacy and in an age when some athletes have to be pried away from the sport kicking and screaming long after their careers are finished, McGwire had no problem simply walking away when he new the time was right.
The summer of 98 captivated baseball fans everywhere. I believe some of these comments are correct, the fact that McGwire did not wag his finger at Congress saying I did not take steroid period, or continue to fabricate ridiculous stories and try to cover up the truth, probably helped him in the publics eye. St. Louis is an incredible baseball town where the fans are loyal almost to a fault. While Mac probably forever tranished him image that day on capitol hill in the minds of many, he will forever have a fan base in St. Louis and elsewhere based on that magic summer of 98 whether or not it was pumped up, juiced up or whatever.Leave a comment:
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Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
As a 20 plus year collector of Ripken and someone that lives 50 miles north of Baltimore and works in Baltimore city, I can say that it is very easy to underestimate the appeal that Ripken had. Don't forget first of all that DC did not have a team during Cal's career in the majors so you add the DC and Baltimore metro area poplulation giving you over 8 million people within that market. In addition, the southern part of PA is a very heavily populated Orioles hotbed so you are probably looking at in excess of 9 million people all situated within a 100 mile radius of Baltimore alone.
Having collected Cal for over 20 years, I can tell you that while I don't necessarily know his overall appeal across the country, I do know a number of devout Ripken collectors some in Denver, San Diego, Minneapolis, Boston, New York, Atlanta etc. His appeal stretched everywhere. A recent poll I just heard on the radio the other day amidst all of the recent steroid discussion asked which athlete current or former across all sports is the most trusted, easy to believe, role model type of athlete and Ripken was named #1.
I cannot overstate that at a time when the Orioles began slidding into mediocrity and below, Ripken was to Baltimore a notch below God. As Brooks Robinson was Mr. Oriole, Cal eclipsed even Brooks in Baltimore lore. In a recent sports poll in the city naming the greatest athlete in Baltimore history, only Johnny U beat out Cal.
While you can certainly argue that Ripken was by no means the greatest player of all time, or even perhaps of his own generation, his mass appeal as a clean and wholesome player who just showed up and played the game the right way is I think underestimated.
Ripken's appeal is that Baltimore prides itself as a blue collar pack your lunch and work hard all day long, town. Cal did that for 16 years without fail, and people in this region really identified with something out of an era long since passed. As someone who has not missed a day of work in over 20 years, I can certainly identify with that mentality of showing up, giving your best effort, in a day and age when I am luck if half of my staff can go two weeks without missing a day of work.
There is also a great deal of money in this area especially into the Washington and Southern PA areas. There are many, many Ripken and Oriole collectors who will pay a pretty penny for authentic Ripken items. That also coupled with the fact that while Cal's bats seem to show up fairly often, his Jersey's at least legit examples are still nearly impossible to find. I have seen probably 300 laughable jersey's of Cal's which were labeled game used over the past ten plus years and probably only five or six that I could say were rock solid. If you want a Ripken glove, forget about it, they do not exist. One or two reportedly got out of Cal's hands over his 21 year career. Unless you have the keys to the Ripken vault you just are not getting any gloves and you will probably be searching long and hard for legit game jerseys. Even Ripken bats from earlier in his career showing "solid, heavy use" are difficult to find. While you will see a number of Ripken bats out there, most don't show a great deal of overall use. So, you can find Ripken bats, just not often ones that are hammered with overall use.
All that being said, I too wish his game used bats, jersey's etc. were not so expensive. I would love to add more to my collection. I am guessing you are paying such a high premium for his jersey's because they are nearly impossible to find. Add to the fact that Cal has never sold off his game used gear or inscribed it game used and sold it etc. and you have a bit of a premium placed on the truly unique and hard to find collectible.Leave a comment:
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Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
jason: i just didn't think your point made much, if any, sense: henderson breaking brock's SB record isn't as impressive as ripken breaking gehrig's consecutive game streak on the grounds that gehrig was a better overall player than brock? you're comparing the record-holders instead of the specific records themselves. even under your logic, there's the fact that brock broke ty cobb's previous single-season SB record and his career record and cobb was better than gehrig. as for long-standing records, it's true that brock's only stood for 12 years, but when he broke it in '77 it had stood for 76 years. it was simply bad timing that henderson arrived in the majors shortly after brock broke it.
as for reyes and passing henderson, henderson owns both the single season and all-time SB records. reyes has been in the majors 6 yrs already and the most he ever stole was 78. rickey did 100 his second season and then swiped 130. not only is his single-season record safe but in order for reyes to pass him career-wise, he'd have to steal 60 bases, every season, for the next 19 years. good luck.
it seems that when it comes to prices, popularity trumps actual performance.
re: bo jackson. i like bo a lot. he was a lot of fun. if a well-priced bat or jersey of his came up, i'd purchase it. i just don't get why an 80s jersey of a guy who never accomplished all that much is well over 4-figures. not counting the infinite wisdom of joe p., bo himself may have said it best when he said "Everything I do, people tend to exaggerate it," he moaned. "With me, they want to make things bigger than they are."
superhuman strength! superhuman strength that couldn't crank out more than 32 homers in '89, his best year. little howard johnson cranked out more home runs in '89 and so did 6 other guys who didn't have bo's superhuman strength. as for the tape measure homers, bo didn't set any records there either. a whole lot of guys hit them as far and further, including mantle, frank howard, kingman, and cecil fielder yet noone ever said they were from another planet. kingman's insane 530-footer tops any bo ever hit. his superhuman speed never translated to anything more than a career-best 27 SBs. i'm sure his strength and speed made for a great NFL Combine but on the baseball field, it didn't seem to amount to much other than a ton of strikeouts and some fun highlight reels. he was so loved by the fans that in his 4 best seasons, he was only voted to the all-star team once which is incredible given his popularity and therefore can only be viewed as a statement of how poorly bo compared to his peers during those years. gets named MVP at the '89 ASG, puts on a great show and doesn't even called as a reserve in 1990 despite having a typical year? (by the way, the 1990 ASG was held in chicago, one of the cities bo is revered according to byergo. apparently he couldn't even make the reserve squad to appear in one of his biggest fanbases).
pete i think you hit the nail on the head: "it's the way these players made me feel while watching them". honestly, it surprises me that mcgwire collectors don't care whether he juiced it or not. it was fun watching him and that's all that really seems to matter. apparently, the same doesn't apply to sosa for some reason.
"Bo Jackson's stuff has high demand for one reason and one reason only: He was a superstar athlete who was the ONLY one who ever made it as an All-Star in two professional sports. That alone makes his G.U. Items big time collectibles."
except that he wasn't the only one. brian jordan made the NFL Pro Bowl in '92 and the MLB All-Star team in 1999. jordan and jackson have similar career stats in baseball but jordan's jerseys go for a tiny fraction of jacksons'. deion sanders on the other hand is the only two-sporter who appeared in both a world series and a super bowl. championships are considered more valuable than all-star games and bo never went to either a world series or super bowl yet his items are still pricier than sanders'. all logic just seems to fly out the window.
re: rickey on the juice
canseco named a ton of names. canseco and henderson played together, sharing the outfield on the A's from '89-92, the prime mcgwire/canseco juicing years. canseco specifically addressed henderson in his first book and said that all he had to say about rickey was that he went to the park every day and worked his ass off. if henderson had juiced it then i don't see how canseco wouldn't have known and if he did, then i can't imagine why, of all people, canseco would've kept it quiet.
rudy.Leave a comment:
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Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
When McGwire retired, up until his fiasco on Capitol Hill, his signed Cardinals-era bats routinely sold at auction for $3,500-4,000. An airtight '98 bat could get $5K at auction. In the past few months, I've seen a perfect 2000 bat sell for as little as $1,100 ($1,500-1,800 is typical for non-'98 bats) and a perfect 1998 bat sell for a shade over $2K ($2,200-2,500 is typical). Both bats were purchased by Forum members. That's still a good chunk of change, but to suggest McGwire's prices have stayed "up there" is ignoring the fact that his bats now are selling for about 30-50 percent of what they used to fetch.
$1,000 Sosa bats today sell for $350-500 -- about the same loss of value, percentage-wise.
We could debate all day about who was more popular and why, but there's no question that Sosa's bats were (and are) much more plentiful than legit McGwire bats -- and that's the key reason for the disparity in price.
People who bought Sosa bats at their peak have lost hundreds of dollars in value. People who bought Mac bats at their peak have lost thousands.Leave a comment:
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Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities
I agree. My dad as well as my wife think McGwire is one huge a*shole that let me down as well as so many others. People are people, not Gods. I always took the stance that McGwire was injured SO OFTEN (in fact his career looked over in 93-94 with foot, etc injuries and back to back 9 HR seasons), that he may have taken the steroids initially to heal. When he not only overcame injuries but it physically made him better, he continued.
We all know McGwire was a born natural HR hitter from little league on. His first hit as a little leaguer was a HR. He did not need roids to help his game. I have never liked the way he handled the congressional meetings. I think he damaged his rep there. Should he come up front humbly, and we all know he can because he is a likeable guy, I think he would be forgiver very quickly and in the Hall eventually. While many experts may point to him as a one dimensional guy, he was an entertainer and we all know about 1998. I'll never forget it sitting at home with my 1 pound, 8 oz. son. It kept my head on straight during some very tough times in my life then.
I also agree with suicide's passing of the torch analogy. If you go back, it's just the way life is. Kingman retired in 86 to make way for Mac and canseco, McGwire walked away from alot of $$ in 01 to make way for Pujols. For any negatives bestowed on McGwire's career, there are many bright spots. He never said a word about a team mate either.
I'd love to have a legit McGwire A's or Cards home jersey, Cards bat. Finding one is tuff. Those in the know keep an eye out for me, but I guess they are scarce...or my phone doesn't work!Leave a comment:
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