Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Both Teams my problem is Lon's initial statement in this thread. If the email I just posted was his 1st post to the board I doubt this thread would have taken on the life it has.

If Mr. Lewis had posted this response with the numerous different scenarios he brings up instead of the post in which he states blue border tags were in full production by 1975, then I think we as a board all would have had very different info and as such would have been able to draw our own conclusions.

That conclusion in my case would have been based on the numerous factors Mr. Lewis mentioned he has no way to tell the shirts apart and that without proof of order sheets for these custom orders the issue is a tag varation, and until proven other wise can not considered to be anything more than that.

This whole thread got out of control based upon Mr. Lewis and original post regarding the fact that anyone could order jerseys direct from McAuliffe, and his stance that borderless were the norm in the 80ties and that all jerseys 1975 on pre 1980 should have should have a blue border.

The 77 Lynn jersey in question does not have the blue border so I have repeatedly ask Lon to address that topic and he has not. To make a statement that all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border to me means he has called in to question the Lynn shirt being a gamer.

He can state that he is not but what would you take it to mean if someone say all 1975 and pre 1980 jerseys should have a blue bordered tag? What conclusion would you draw from that statement?

Finally with players getting 3 jerseys home and 3 road per Mr. Lewis whats to say the player actually wore all 3? As his statement is regarding wear on a shirt, what if the player only wore 1 for the whole season and the other two shirts hung as spares in the locker?

Players have their favorite glove, bat, hat even in this day and age when players go thru equipment like water Trot Nixon and John Wettland both wore the same hat all season and had the WS patch put on that hat Wettland 1996 and Trot 2004 . Varitek, and Youk wore pants that were completely hammered and patched and stitched and those examples are 2005 and 2008.

Bottom line with McAuliffe shirts there is no way to tell the difference between a gamer and a custom, retail, aftermarket ( if customs did indeed exist), and Mr. lewis himself has stated as much when he stated if he did not know the source of the shirts he considers to be retails, custom, after market he would have a hard time telling them apart. Whats the source what are the jerseys in question?

It just seems to me as Mr. Lewis should not make a blanket statement pertaining to Mcauliffe tagging without evidence and proof to back it up. You cant say all 1975 to pre 80 McAuliffes should have the blue border neck tag and not expect someone to question where you come up with that position when there have been numerous examples of 1975-pre 80ties without the blue border.

Futhermore he then states that even custom orders had the blue bordered tag in the neck 1975-pre 80, so what conclusion would you draw based on that statement if you are looking at a 1977 jersey that has a borderless neck tag?

Take a stand Mr. Lewis tell us your position and then take the month to gather your evidence thats all I want. The questions were posted eariler respond to them and I will not post again till you post your findings next month.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Did you ask Lon a question about the Sox jerseys and this was his response? Seems like he outlined many possible scenarios. You asked a question, and he gave an answer. Did Lon try to sell you a jersey? If not, why is it his duty to authenticate your jersey? It appears he was friendly enough to give you a detailed reply.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Another Lon lewis gem regarding size of shirt as the way to tell the difference, but wait he states that a 42 could have been ordered but not on the order sheet. Give it up Lon you dont know how to tell the difference any better than anyone else.

" That was a typo on my part it should have read 1975-78. In 1975, the regular position players and some of the pitchers had 3 home and road uniforms ordered initially there was also an extra set ordered for the series. There also were 5 players who initially requested the patch worn in '75 to be on the right sleeve instead of the left. Have I seen Lynn jerseys without the border? sure just like Fisk, Yaz, Rice amazing coincidence huh? As far as the 42 is concerned, there are a couple of explanations. The first would be that a 42 was made up for him for whatever reason in addition to the regular order-no big deal as you could just use a blank extra and there you go. It wouldn't show up on the order sheet because it was a blank. Another scenario would be that this is a number changed jersey that Lynn signed "my gamer". Players rarely know which jerseys are really theirs. A third possibility is that that jersey is a minor league jersey with the number 19 on it and since McAuliffe/ Stahl and Dean routinely tagged the minor league jerseys with the same tagging. A number of these have popped up in the past few years and the only way to differentiate them is by size. Take your pick. Photo shoots, As a general rule during this time period the players would wear their actual jerseys for photo shoots and sometimes like for head shots,ect the team photog would just use a blank and have the players switch before each shot. With Lynn and the regular players having 3 sets most of the time it's hard to imagine the Sox ordering even more just for publicity purposes. Former employee claims: There is a chance that a front office type would have picked up some jerseys off of the E.M. but on the other hand, how hard do you think it would be for a front office type to order his own jerseys? Given the proximity of Stahl and Dean to Fenway, all that would have to happen is a phone call and a drive to pick it up where you could either pay a whopping $ 45.00 each or bill it to the club. I seem to remember that there were a number of Sox jerseys sold at auction in the last year or so and all purportedly came from a former Sox front office type. Since I no longer collect I'm glad that I don't have to sort through these issues of course back in the day, my main focus was the Giants. Bottom line: If it doesn't have the blue border after 1974 I would be skeptical but you would still have to consider the overall condition of the jersey if it shows repeated use/launderings that could indicate that the tagging is just an anomaly however, if the tags are crisp and new such as the neck tags on the Lynn and all of the tags on the Yaz that was pointed out, well I'd just pass."
Lon

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Mr. Lewis my reading comprehension is fine. Your writing skills are lacking.

Your post is below. Your quote regarding the Henderson guide which you have also posted to the board in reference to the ordering of shirts by the public is what I am talking about.

You reference a 1971 jersey listed in Henderson and say that it was ordered in 1987 for a softball team? That's your proof of jerseys being sold to the public? A shirt with tags that are 16 years old ordered for a softball team 16 years later? You are joking correct? You don't read what you write then say I take what you wrote out of context. What am I missing what did I miss read or not understand? You exact words are as follow.

" The only tangible evidence ( other than finding someone who did order a jersey and having them admit it or show it) of being able to order jerseys with tagging comes from the Henderson guide which I've attached. It shows what he calls a "prototype" Cleveland Indians 1971 knit jersey. In fact it's a jersey ordered in 1987 and used by a member of a softball team in the Cleveland area. By coincidence I happen to know the individual who ordered the jerseys from Stahl and Dean for that team."

Finally go back and read the whole post Mr.Lewis from 1-18-2009. It is all there and the topic in question is clubhouse sources and trusting the tagging, holograms and opinions of authenticators and stating what they do is no better than what a collector could do.

The statement was that just because a shirt is tagged correctly that does not mean a damn thing, that was in reference to the fact that with out a photo match or direct provenance no jersey can be concluded to be a 100% game worn, but you also need to trust your source but again lon don't reference the thread and topic just pull it apart.

I have not done that once to you. I have referenced your exact words gone back thru ALL your post and pointed out your statements that contradict your previous statements.

I have not bailed once all i have ever asked you for is proof and still nothing. Don't you think there would be another board member who ordered a shirt directly if you could have done it? Also if it was profitable for McAuliffe why not make the fact that you could do this public? I don't know any business that is in business to not make as much money as they can.



Finally yes I do find it almost impossible for you to restore 18,000 jerseys in 25 years that averages 1.97 shirts each and every day 365 days a year for those 25 years. You state you need templates I agree completely and as such you need an example of the shirt to reference and create the patterns, templates, drawings.

As such wouldn't you have that reference material stored somewhere? Wouldn't you take notes about tagging, lettering, font size, material? Also most restorers take before and after photos of their work it could be a car, home, painting thats common place kind of a brag book so perspective clients can see your previous work.

I have functioned on my own for many years Mr.Lewis and uncovered everything from a Babe Ruth game used bat, to a Ted Williams complete uniform, to vintage 50ties HOF football jerseys, to WS rings, and a collection of vintage teens and 20ties programs, cards and tickets. All these items were located by do hours of research, hunting down leads and numerous hours spent on the phone and the road. I am no stranger to hard work I want nothing handed to me.

What I don't like is you throwing out statements that you have no proof to back.

It seems as if your pissed because I have questioned your statements and have asked you to clarify your current position and you have still yet to do that so I will ask one final time.

What does the lack of a blue border in the neck tag of a post 1975 McAuliffe jersey mean to you?

Is it

A. a aftermarket jersey
B. a game used jersey
C. could it be both


Simple question that you have not answered

I will pose the same question regarding a jersey that has a blue border in the neck tag. What does that mean to you?
Is it

A. a aftermarket jersey
B. a game used jersey
C. could it be both

I pose this question as you state that the blue border was in full swing by 1975. Thus I will not get into the transition year of 74 or any jerseys before that as they should be borderless based upon Mr. Lewis statements.

Just respond to those questions and your reason why you feel that way and then take as long as you want to provide your evidence to prove your point. I don't think that is asking to much.

[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

The only amazing one here is you. Again the part you reference as having no proof is actually the entire reply or quote which as usual, you cut up for your own purposes. I didn't attach the page that I sent you because I figured it wasn't necessary but if you insist, here you go. If you're a college graduate, I'd look into a refund especially for the reading comprehension course. If I read your ridiculous comment about the restoration part correctly, you want me to have photographed all of the jerseys that I've done over the past 25 years and some how use that to illlustrate aftermarket jerseys that I didn't restore or haven't had pass through here? Are you kidding me? Also if you actually knew any thing about the restoration process you can't just go by a photo you need precise patterns , templates drawings, ect for each team. So why would I need to photo anything if I already have the pattterns templates and drawings? If you don't like my time frame for doing things, as I said why don't you do something about it yourself nobodys stopping you. Oh yeah, you can't function on your own in this environment with out someone else leading you by the hand every step of the way. As to the post that I quoted of yours, that is the entire post you made at the time word for word in that particular thread. It is indicative of your opinion just a few short weeks ago but it seems that your opinions change when you have a stake in the jersey. How strange. Good night and keep bailing.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Lon if you actually represent the thread the right way from January it was in reference to someone getting mad at a person for having clubhouse sources. I said that was laughable and that the only way to be 100 percent certain on an item is a photo match or getting it directly from the player.

But it's ok twist what I said, the tagging issue went back to how steiner said game worn and mlb said game issued and that the tagging on a shirt meant two different things to two different companies and that in this hobby there is no way to tell 100 % on an item unless you get a photo match or got it from the player but you need to trust your source. It also states that MEARS was just an opinion and steiner was just a sticker and we could do our own research.

It's not worth rehashing read that post if you care to but read the whole post and you will see it is not what Mr.lewis represents it to be.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

yeah lon I am a newbie with 25 years of collecting who is college educated, who has brokered 6 figure deals between private collectors and prominent dealers, I havebrought to market some amazing private collections and items who has chosen to stay away from these stupid debates because individuals like you can't comprehend what you write and then try to say I miss represented you. You just posted the email that proves that you have no evidence that you are referencing a jersey that is tagged 1971 and state that it is from 1987.

I reference you exactly and you say I twist your word you just posted the email and your only proof is the henderson guide for an individual with 30 plus years who has restored 18,000 jerseys I would think you would have to have an extensive photo archive to be able to do appropiate research in order to do the restoration. With that info in hand what would take a month to gather?

Lon you are amazing regarding the 01-18-2009 post was an entierly different topic but thats fine, it was in reference to MEARS, Steiner, etc and the value we put behind their LOA's. I am done good luck Mr. Lewis and happy collecting.

[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

This is for sox bats You have a pretty firm grip on the situation as it was back then. Not to many people took advantage of the situation in those days which is probably a good thing. Those who did, the majority of them still have those jerseys in their collections. On top of that, I think that if you had tried to order too many jerseys especially of the same star players at once Mr. Stall would have declined to accept the order. I do know that the ability to order the jerseys was discontinued except for a few selected individuals in the mid-late 80's after Mr Stall took note of a few of these jerseys entering the market and being sold as game worn.

[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

This just gets better and better, If you insist on misleading everyone on what was said email or otherwise go ahead. Your latest is another example of it. The email in question which actually reads " The only tangible evidence ( other than finding someone who did order a jersey and having them admit it or show it) of being able to order jerseys with tagging comes from the Henderson guide which I've attached. It shows what he calls a "prototype" Cleveland Indians 1971 knit jersey. In fact it's a jersey ordered in 1987 and used by a member of a softball team in the Cleveland area. By coincidence I happen to know the individual who ordered the jerseys from Stahl and Dean for that team. My only reason to post originally was to answer the inquiry about the blue/borderless mfr tag.Like everything else posted on the forum, you're free to accept the information or dis-regard it that's your choice" This part of the email was in response to your email demand for "proof" the very day that I posted about tagging.Since I couldn't make the jerseys or any thing else you were demanding appear at that instant I used the best example I had available. To which at the end of your reply you say "Finally what does an individual who ordered a shirt from Stahl and Dean have to do with McAuliffe?" Brillliant response. And you really want me to tell you how to differentiate between these aftermarket jerseys and the real ones? You can't even grasp a 3 line post or quote me correctly. And I'm supposed to walk you through the complexities involved with this? I took the time to review all of your previous posts and as I suspected, you're a relative newbie to this (collecting) who wants someone else to do everything for you laid out in a nice neat package. But there was one thing in there that was really informative: "Like I said unless you can photomatch an item, just because a jersey is tagged the right way don't mean a damn thing. Even Mears all you are paying for is their opinion and what is that? It is them looking at photos and matching stuff up, we have all bought in to the theory that a Mears LOA or a Steiner Hologram is gold when the truth is all Steiner is is a sticker and all mears is a bunch of guys doing the same thing we could do with books and photos if we put in the same time and effort." recognize that ? that's you 01-18-2009 10:57 pm. My favorite part is the "just because a jersey is tagged the right way don't mean a damn thing." Gee, how times have changed in the past few weeks. There it is, your post warts and all unlike your cherry picking of my posts and emails. Face it, you're on the Titanic trying to bail with a coffee can.

[flaco1801]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

heres my take.... when you find a 70's era jersey, if it aint used, abused and just plain worn i would suspect... even the ball players themselves didnt think to keep their shirts although some may have purchased them from the club.. i remember ron taylor of the mets telling me he cant give balls away, they get charged... the 75 red sox jerseys were so abused the roads looked a pale white, i suspect from being in so many spring training games in florida...

[soxbats]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys in a vast amount of sizes and of numerous players in both home and road versions?

I find this statement troubling on many levels. If you are going to persist in the constant flow of comments for all of us to digest let's try to apply some minimum common sense and do your own research.

I have the following questions/observations in response to your statement:

In 1975 how many people were interested in buying high end replica jerseys of star players? What was the cost? Given that there was no real game used collecting market, how many of these retail jerseys (presumably purchased by fans to wear to games) would have survived in a state possible for resale? How were the jerseys advertised to the public and were they even advertized or simply done by word of mouth? What were the production capabilities of the company at the time, could they have mass produced that many jerseys?

You are pounding people for allegedly throwing out baseless theories and then you offer up these types of gems. What you need is more information, not more words.

Your comment suggests that the retail avaialabilty theory cannot be true becuase, if it was, someone would have purchased hundreds of star jerseys and preserved them in 1975 knowing that some day, but certainly not that day or decade, they would make a killing on them. On the other hand, and I have no evidence of this but await Lon's analysis, is it plausible that people could order replica jerseys but that fact was neither widely known or widely desired which might explain why there are many but not hundreds of [insert star player name here] jerseys?

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Yeah Flaco1801 let's just take people at face value with no proof. That worked well for all the Madoff investors who trusted the former Wall street wiz kid. HE had a great rep, well respected and on paper made people millions. Just because someone has a great rep does not mean you follow that person, especially when they have made conflicting statements and have provided no proof to back their positoion. I am done posting, done responding. Done with this issue.

If Mr.Lewis wants me to post his first email in which his proof is a 1971 Indians jersey in Henderson's that he says was made in 1987, and the fact that he knows a guy who ordered softball shirts from stall and dean I will be happy to.
That's Lon's proof. I have forwarded that email to MEARS. My Intent was never to question Mr. Lewis hobby standing just ask for proof of which none has been supplied.

[flaco1801]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Knowledge has been provided, some just have to argue about it.... if mr. lewis says that mcaullife shirt have been ordered by individuals as custom shirts, ya know what, i believe him without "proof". i would believe his word over any loa.. thats what ya get from being in this hobby,and being respected....RESPECT

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

you are entitled to your position vintage and I respect it. the intent of this board is to provide knowledge, help people locate items and provide fact. I hope this topic proves to be of some benefit in the long run.

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

This thread has ceased to be useful.