Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[lund6771]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys in a vast amount of sizes and of numerous players in both home and road versions?

As far as this comment goes, I can guarantee to you that they are buried in collections

I was at the National in the early 90's and must have seen 20 1989 Michael Jordan sand-knit jerseys with team letters...and that was in one room

where are they all now?....dried up in collections

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Thats great lund6771 thanks for the advice. If anyone knew what collections have come to the market as a result of my efforts and research you might think differently.

Now I know why Dave Bushing left working as an authenticator.

I chose to go to this forum to point out the fact that just because someone is respected does not mean they are correct.

Mr. Lewis has made enough statements that contradict each other and if this was just emails between me and him those would not be brought to light.

Mr. Lewis should be held accountable for his position, should be able to clarify his statements, should be able to answer a question. That's all I have asked of Mr Lewis clarify his position and prove it. Don't say one thing in one breath and a different thing in another.

It is very easy the only thing I have asked Mr.Lewis to answer is the following.

Mr. Lewis what is a post 1975 McAuliffe borderless neck taged jersey in your opinion?

A. An after market, retail, custom whatever term you want to use

B. A gamer

C. Could it be both?

[ironmanfan]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

would you care to elaborate on your "opinion"?

Not so much opinion rather than fact (obvious), let me know if you'd rather have me post on here for ALL to learn or if you like to be schooled privately (your choice)...

Bill
whhp72@yahoo.com

[lund6771]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Bosox...you may have the greatest intentions in the world...but if you are seeking answers, why display every single second of your thoughts in a public forum?

there are 130 something posts on this thread that could be refined to 3 or 4...

It sounds like you are on more of a soap box than seeking information....

I've only e-mailed with Lon a few times, but there is no doubt in my mind that he is a hobby expert in many niches...why not speak with him through e-mail instead of taking a few words and running with it and going crazy here?

there is a lot of valuable info that many people could LEARN from through Lon's experience and his access to info

why not kick back and see what he comes up with instead of turning this into a pissing match?...

Like many have posted to you; cruise around the internet, books, etc...find info and get answers to the info that you seek...

I wouldn't be surpised that if you spent half the time doing research, instead of creating controversy here, that you would have half of yur questions answered by now

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

King if that is the case then no McAuliffe jersey from this time frame should get a grade of higher than A5 from mears with direct player or team letter, as there seems to be no way to tell the difference.

The argument centered around the fact that post 1975 jerseys had the blue bordered tag, and the lack of a blue border meant "aftermarket". Now if that is not the case then what does the lack of a blue border mean in a 1977 shirt?

It means it is a tag varation which has been my argument the whole time, that there is no way to tell the difference, that there is no proof that shirts could be ordered and now even if there is proof that the shirts could be ordered there is no way to tell them apart as they are tagged the same way.

If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys in a vast amount of sizes and of numerous players in both home and road versions?

Mr. Lewis states on this board that if he did not know the source of the shirts that he considers to be retail, after market, custom whatever you want to call them he would have a hard time telling the difference. So what about the shirts he does not know the source of what factors will he use to figure those out, if they are tagged the same way as a gamer?

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Am I the only one who read Lon's initial post in which he said that blue bordered tags were in full swing by 1975? That is what caused this whole issue Lon stating that post 1975 jerseys were blue bordered. Lon can back track make different statements every time I point out his contradictions. Everything I have posted has been taken directly from this board, Lon's own words.

Now Mr. Lewis stated yesterday without knowing the source of jerseys he considers to be retail he would have a hard time telling the difference between a retail and a gamer. Then he states you can't go about evaluating the jerseys in the normal way? What new method will be used?

Lon did question the Lynn Jersey by stating that post 75 gamers had the blue border now he has back tracked on that and said that even a retail can have the blue border.

Bottom line is because Mr. Lewis is a long time veteran of the hobby he is consider to be a good source and because the board does not know me I am questioned.

He has created more questions than answers, not once have I made a mean comment towards him, however he references Back to the Future and tells me to get off my lazzy ass. Mr. Lewis has only been asked to clarify his statements regarding the border issue which he still has yet to do.

suicide_squeeze your comments towards beantown are cruel and just down right wrong. You have no clue as to the extent of research beantown has done regarding his vast collection and what items are in it. It is a very impressive collection. He does not need luck in his collecting.

In regards to me I am not hanging on any limb waiting to fall. I have been at the forefront of trying to get an answer on the issue. If I am dangeling from a limb so is Dave M, Mears, and every auction house from Lelands, AMI, Robert Edwards, as all have evaluated and sold borderless post 75 jerseys as gamers.

Finally in regards to the sale of the shirt it does not mean a thing to me one way or the other, I brought other gamers from my large collection to show beantown and was only parting with the Lynn to ad some WS bats to my collection and because it was going to a hugh Lynn fan.

This topic has spun out of controll because Mr. Lewis has not clearified his statements regarding the tagging issue and exactly what a post 75 no blue border means to him.

[dcgreg25]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Chris AKA beantown, can you email me? I have a question completely unrelated to this thread I wanted to ask you. Thanks.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

there's a world of difference between saying retail jerseys had borderless tags and saying ONLY retail jerseys had ONLY borderless tags. that difference seems to have escaped eric. lon said the former, he never said the latter.

as for lon's statement that in the 80s they public received borderless tags, the public were the only ones receiving any mcauliffe jerseys in the 80s as mcauliffe stopped supplying the majors after 1980 so every shirt after that would necessarily be considered "retail" regardless of any borders.

re: concurrence
it seems to me that BOTH bordered and borderless tags were used concurrently during the 70s.

aside from that, at this point, i'm failing to see how or why this is even an issue of border vs borderless. from lon's words, i see that he said that mcauliffe made no differentiation between retail and pro tagging, meaning that mcauliffe didn't use ONLY borderless tags to indicate retail jerseys ONLY. "the wrong size and the borderless tag is the first sign the jersey may be an aftermarket jersey."

the only salient points in this entire thing are:

1) mcauliffe tagged all levels of their baseball shirts - pro, minor league, high school, etc., the same way.

2) stall & dean sold mcauliffe shirts to the public. eric doubts this and i believe that's what lon is gearing up to show.

[i believe that in order to qualify as a "retail" shirt, a shirt doesn't necessarily need to be sold in stores in per se. if a non-MLB entity can call up a mfr and order a shirt, then that shirt ought qualify as a "retail' shirt, regardless of how close the shirt is to the pro version. you can call it a "pro cut" but pro cuts are still considered retail shirts. simply because a shirt wasn't distributed to major retail chains doesn't mean it wasn't available for retail sale]

3) these shirts, sold to the public, were tagged in the same way as the shirts delivered to major leaguers.

given those 3 issues, extra care would be needed to discern a yaz shirt ordered by joe q. public, for example, and a yaz gamer. size and use would be helpful factors. "..if you knew the correct size - presto, instant game jersey".

if stall & dean were selling these shirts in the 70s and the bordered tag was in full production by 1975 and if S&D/mcauliffe made no hard distinction between retail and pro then doesn't that mean that the public could also receive bordered shirts in the 70s?

in my mind, this entire thing doesn't appear to be about borders at all but rather the fact that the public had access to the same shirts as the pros.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

WOW.

And this, folks......is proof positive that you can lead a horse to water, lift him in the air with a harness and boom, tie him up in a manner so he can't move, turn him upside-down, and POUR THE FREAKING WATER DOWN HIS THROAT......and once you release the water-deprivated horse......he'll still spit it out! Good luck in your continued collection Chris. Something tells me you you are going to need luck.

i found this response ridiculously presumptuous and about as lucid as your rodney king reference/analogy. if you were trying to be comedic i think you missed badly...

...

[R. C. Walker]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

The End . . . .

[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Bosox, As is your typical m.o. you managed to take 2 seperate issues and combine them together in an effort to try and mislead people on them. First, where did you get the idea I said I never mentioned borderless tags? how else would you describe a tag with no border? Border omitted perhaps? What you've done is to leave off the other 2 words in the sentence which were "are retail' You know the part when I said I I didn't use the words "fake", "retail"' and "borderless tags are retail" and we were then on your post threatening to publish our emails of 3/5. Which if you note I told you to go ahead and publish them to whoever you want as long as you published the exact email. I WAS RESPONDING TO THAT ISSUE/POST. Now you bring up an entirely different post/ comment with the "They're supposed to be retail" part, again I was responding in YOUR TERMS to your ridiculous comments on a totally different post and subject. I'd suggest that you stop trying to intentionally post my comments out of context to prove some untenable position on your part. The fact that you've aparently sold the jersey that started all of this, to a person who feels comfortable and in an ironic twist, appears to be crediting me with helping him to make his decision. The fact that I didn't even call your jersey into question here seems to have escaped you. In the end, that should be good enough for you.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

I am the original poster on this topic and yes, I PURCHASED this jersey yesterday!

I met Eric in person on two occasions had some very nice conversations about his collection, the provenance on this jersey along with other Red Sox jerseys and physically examined this jersey...I am comfortable with it.

Does it show the same amout of wear .vs the '75 in GF or the '76 in Lelands? No......but it does show wear. Moreover, I have been collecting Lynn Game Used Jerseys for quite some time...other than the '77 that is a size 42 and signed; "My Gamer"...this is the only other '77 I have personally seen on the memorabilia market.

I appreciate the information that Mr. Lon Lewis has provided directly to me and it aided in my decision to buy the jersey...all the Lynn jerseys I have in my collection are a size 44 and Mr. Lewis confirmed Lynn wore/ordered a size 44 during '75-'78. Here are some of my other Lynn jerseys from later in his career.

On one last note, Eric has offered to do something for me with this Lynn jersey...hopefully it will happen...if and when it does, I will post pictures...

Chris

WOW.

And this, folks......is proof positive that you can lead a horse to water, lift him in the air with a harness and boom, tie him up in a manner so he can't move, turn him upside-down, and POUR THE FREAKING WATER DOWN HIS THROAT......and once you release the water-deprivated horse......he'll still spit it out! Good luck in your continued collection Chris. Something tells me you you are going to need luck.

Look, Bosox....you don't even know what Ron....I MEAN Lon!.....is going to come up with as back-up to his position. Essentially, you have completely and thoroughly dug the whole you have consciously chosen too....just to consummate a sale on this jersey. I truthfully honestly hope it works out to your (and Chris's) favor, as no one wants to see anybody crash and burn here. We are all here to help eachother.

That said, let's just hope it isn't that 6-foot deep kind of hole that would properly accomodate your coffin....because that limb your hanging from just snapped, and you're in a free fall.

For.....I don't know.......around 30 days or so?

The only question remaining is......are you a cat that will land on your feet, or will the plunge land you in that crater you dug?

Good luck to all involved. Glad I'm not.

[eisenreich8]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

That would be intriguing. To me it seems there may be tagging on the inside of the front tail?? That's a solid clue to authenticity. Seen it before.

[beantown]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Beantown...not to add more distractions to this thread, but I don't think that Orioles home/white of Lynn is good..maybe another post would be good for that subject

would you care to elaborate on your "opinion"?

[ironmanfan]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Beantown...not to add more distractions to this thread, but I don't think that Orioles home/white of Lynn is good..maybe another post would be good for that subject