Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

[tacprc]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Chuck,

I have to say, I love the fact that you are so loyal to Mr. Rose. I like him too, as stated earlier.

But the debt problems he was going through, around 1986, mainly created by mounting gambling losses, is so well documented.... in the Dowd report, in general in articles, interviews, Tommy Gioiosa's statements, understandings expressed by guys who knew Rose well like Steve Wolter...I just think there's little reason to enter into a debate over this issue. I mean, it's the whole reason behind Pete doing a lot of the things he did, IMO. I don't think a guy who is baseball royalty, about to break (and even after he broke) one of baseball greatest records....is going to consider financing a cocaine deal because he's sitting phat and happy with ton's of money in his bank accounts. He was warned by associates to write checks under $10K so they wouldn't be identified...and therfore questioned...by the IRS...ALL to pay off debts. It's all out there, just Google it.

That said, I feel a bit blue today. With his documentary coming out this summer, this should be a good time for Pete, and instead he's having to deal with another bad revelation. I hope that the general public and most who don't even follow this great sport understand that corking a bat, although against MLB rules, just doesn't amount to much in the grand scheme of his achievements on the field. As argued here, for all we know they may have detracted from them.

Steve, You don't have all the facts. Besides the 4192 hit bat and ball, Pete didn't sell any of his memorabilia until 10 or so years ago. It was all on display in his Boca Raton restaurant called the Pete Rose Ballpark Cafe.
He still owns some of his major awards, World Series rings, etc.

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Going into this season, Jeter was only 15 hits behind Rose at the same age. If Derek Jeter continues his current production another 4 years, when he turns 40 he'll be somewhere around 3,600 hits. Then it will be up to him whether he wants to go for it.

Rose only averaged 130 hits for the 5 years, from age 40 to 44, then tacked on 52 more when he was 45 years old. That would be doable for Derek, who takes fantastic care of himself.

Will Jeter break the record? Probably not. But it is not inconceivable.

Really?

Pete played first base late in his career. As a first baseman, you essentially have a goalie's mitt on to knock down hot shots, and just need to be able to schuffle to first base to catch a throw.

As a shortstop, if you really truly believe Derek Jeter will still have the tools to hold his position, then I think you're fooling yourself. Even if he maintains a strick JennyCraig regimen through his early 40's, there will be at least 10 other young guys with abilities abound to jettizen our beloved Jeter into retirement. Things just start to go. You'd have to do something other than "take care of yourself" to stay a starting major leaguer. Just ask Barry Bonds.

And you're going to ask the New York fans to hang around for 4-5 years of a guy performing at 60% so that he can make an attempt to reach this amazing unreachable feat?

I'll give you that it's not impossible.

But it's beyond highly unlikely.

[tacprc]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Chuck,

Please......stop.

You are speaking without knowledge.

They did a lot of research. Bill and I have remained fairly silent, because it was not our place to say anything.

They did extensive homework verifying what they had, spoke to the photographer who took that picture (as they referred to him by name in their article), stated the obvious that Pete in on deck, as that's what they were told by the photog, and he is wearing a GAME jersey, not a warm-up batting practice jersey.....I mean it's not for deadspin to answer to....the evidence is out there for all to draw their own conclusions with. The ball is now in Pete's court, with his reps, to spin out of.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Look, I'll go as far as saying this: We are all collectors here. To any of you possibly worried about your Pete Rose items taking a hit due to another onslaught into this man's integrity....take a deep breath and rest easy. Pete Rose, and his hit record, is not going to be discredited by a few of his bats turning up corked. It's old news. But the revelation of proof isn't. So let Pete and his people state what they want. Eventually, it will blow over.

As an owner of one of these little altered gems, it's bitter-sweet. Enough said about that. But Pete's hit record, barring some genetic splice between Cal Ripken Jr. and Ty Cobb entering the baseball scene, will outlive all of us for generations to come. With the higher pressure to perform, and the immense competition to perform to even keep a major league spot on a roster in today's baseball, it's almost inconceivable anyone will break his hit record for decades....if ever. A 24+ year career as an active player who produced like Pete Rose is almost as rare as a perfect game ending and being lost on the last batter incorrectly!

Steve, I talked to Bill over the weekend. There is no evidence indicating exactly when or where this picture was taken.

[schubert1970]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Steve, I talked to Bill over the weekend. There is no evidence indicating exactly when or where this picture was taken.

At the time we talked I had no additional information. Since then, Barry confirmed with Bob that the photo was taken in Philly between July 4th - July 7th.

Bill

[STLHAMMER32]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Really?

Pete played first base late in his career. As a first baseman, you essentially have a goalie's mitt on to knock down hot shots, and just need to be able to schuffle to first base to catch a throw.

As a shortstop, if you really truly believe Derek Jeter will still have the tools to hold his position, then I think you're fooling yourself. Even if he maintains a strick JennyCraig regimen through his early 40's, there will be at least 10 other young guys with abilities abound to jettizen our beloved Jeter into retirement. Things just start to go. You'd have to do something other than "take care of yourself" to stay a starting major leaguer. Just ask Barry Bonds.

And you're going to ask the New York fans to hang around for 4-5 years of a guy performing at 60% so that he can make an attempt to reach this amazing unreachable feat?

I'll give you that it's not impossible.

But it's beyond highly unlikely.

Jeter might be the only man living who would have the support of New York fans to chase a record such as this. Whether or not he would decide to play to chase the record is a different story. However, Jeter is one of those players who is important to the team far beyond his abilities on the field. He is the ultimate Yankee and is the symbol of the city in alot of ways so it would not just be the performance aspect that fans would look at.... Anyone more famous then Jeter in New York? The man is absolutely loved. I think Jeter will have the license to end his career whenever he wants. Jeter breaking the hit record will likely never happened but I doubt it will be because the fans push him out of the game.

[tacprc]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Also, the article does not say that author talked to Bob Bartosz.

Also, the article says "Before the season, Rose had a box of about 30 black Mizuno bats specially made for him"? Where did they learn that? I have never seen any Mizuno production figures for Pete Rose or any other player.

Plus, as we have discussed, the model PR4192 came with two different knobs. Did the shipment of 30 bats include both knobs, or was one shipped earlier in the season, and the other later?

Also, the article says, "His trademark quick swing not nearly as quick as it used to be, Rose ordered his bats a little lighter than usual to shorten up his motion. The bats were 34 inches long, and weighed 31.6 ounces." Again, where did they learn that the bats weighed 31.6 ounces? That's an odd number. It sounds like weight of one particular PR4192 bat that was recently weighed, not the weight of Rose's bats at the time of shipment.

[tacprc]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

At the time we talked I had no additional information. Since then, Barry confirmed with Bob that the photo was taken in Philly between July 4th - July 7th.

Bill

OK, I'll take your word for it, but seems odd. If I got a quote like that from Bob Bartosz, I would have put it right in the article.

I will circle back to Bob, and see what he says.

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Steve, You don't have all the facts. Besides the 4192 hit bat and ball, Pete didn't sell any of his memorabilia until 10 or so years ago. It was all on display in his Boca Raton restaurant called the Pete Rose Ballpark Cafe.
He still owns some of his major awards, World Series rings, etc.

Chuck,

I mentioned earlier that Pete Rose had gambling debt issues to contend with, and he sold "stuff". I didn't specifically refer to his game used stuff, did I? And that wasn't the point of my comment.

For the record, Pete sold a lot of "stuff" in the past, and some of it was "stuff" signed "Pete Rose" by Tommy Gioiosa. Yes Chuck...forged "stuff".

He also sold "stuff" that he would have tagged by Tommy as they were sitting in his living room, and as they marked a specific item Pete had used to reach a specific milestone, or achieve a special feat with, Pete would say things like (and I'm not positive if I have the exact wordage ver batim, but it's close) "We're going to make some serious s%#t on that one!"

My only point in even bringing up the "gambling debt" issue was to bring up the point he had that problem in the past. So...selling TODAY one of the most...no, the VERY most precious piece he owns, his record setting l;ast hit bat, just made me think for a split second that I pray he hasn't fallen back into that kind of a mess again. That would be beyond tragic, and that's all I was saying. I hope he is just selling it because....he wants to sell it.

In regards to the last comment about speaking to Bill this weekend, and not knowing about the date of that picture......Chuck, three world wars have been fought and won between this weekend and today in regards to this bat. And that is just a figure of speech, Chuck. Please don't ask me which three.

The guys at deadspin DID contact the photographer, Bob Bartosz, and Bob confirmed to them, without question, that photo of Pete with that bat was taken BY HIM on JULY 4th, 1985, in Philadelphia while the Reds were visiting the Phillies.

A quick check on baseball-reference.com will verify the fact these two teams played on the weekend, Chuck. I hope this all clarifies things for you.

This is too serious an issue to be posting sympathetic "views" to confuse the readers. We should all try to refrain from waivering from the facts. Pete Rose and his people will have to come out and make a statement on what's out there. The facts are out for everone to see, and I think there's much of a possibility to explain all of these issues away. I don't see a batting cage next to Pete in that picture. I don't see a batting practice jersey. I do see a game jersey, a helmet, a serious looking Pete Rose with a weighted bat getting ready to hit...pretty compelling evidence to the average Joe...

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

TYPO ALERT......see underlined highlighted missing word below, my apologies...

This is too serious an issue to be posting sympathetic "views" to confuse the readers. We should all try to refrain from waivering from the facts. Pete Rose and his people will have to come out and make a statement on what's out there. The facts are out for everone to see, and I DON'T think there's much of a possibility to explain all of these issues away. I don't see a batting cage next to Pete in that picture. I don't see a batting practice jersey. I do see a game jersey, a helmet, a serious looking Pete Rose with a weighted bat getting ready to hit...pretty compelling evidence to the average Joe...

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Jeter might be the only man living who would have the support of New York fans to chase a record such as this. Whether or not he would decide to play to chase the record is a different story. However, Jeter is one of those players who is important to the team far beyond his abilities on the field. He is the ultimate Yankee and is the symbol of the city in alot of ways so it would not just be the performance aspect that fans would look at.... Anyone more famous then Jeter in New York? The man is absolutely loved. I think Jeter will have the license to end his career whenever he wants. Jeter breaking the hit record will likely never happened but I doubt it will be because the fans push him out of the game.

I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you said. Almost.

Anyone more famous than Jeter in New York? I hope you meant "today", because you have Babe Ruth, Sweet Lou, Joe D., and Mickey Mantle chuckling in the clouds if you meant of "all time".

That all said, he still falls way short.

[tacprc]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Chuck,

I mentioned earlier that Pete Rose had gambling debt issues to contend with, and he sold "stuff". I didn't specifically refer to his game used stuff, did I? And that wasn't the point of my comment.

For the record, Pete sold a lot of "stuff" in the past, and some of it was "stuff" signed "Pete Rose" by Tommy Gioiosa. Yes Chuck...forged "stuff".

He also sold "stuff" that he would have tagged by Tommy as they were sitting in his living room, and as they marked a specific item Pete had used to reach a specific milestone, or achieve a special feat with, Pete would say things like (and I'm not positive if I have the exact wordage ver batim, but it's close) "We're going to make some serious s%#t on that one!"

My only point in even bringing up the "gambling debt" issue was to bring up the point he had that problem in the past. So...selling TODAY one of the most...no, the VERY most precious piece he owns, his record setting l;ast hit bat, just made me think for a split second that I pray he hasn't fallen back into that kind of a mess again. That would be beyond tragic, and that's all I was saying. I hope he is just selling it because....he wants to sell it.

Steve, You have no idea when Pete sold his 4256 Hit bat, how he feels about it, or what he did with the money. Pete has been selling items to Lelands for at least the past 10 years. Also, give me an example of one meaningful game used item or award that Pete sold through Tommy Gioiosa.

[CowboyJohn]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Also, the article does not say that author talked to Bob Bartosz.

Also, the article says "Before the season, Rose had a box of about 30 black Mizuno bats specially made for him"? Where did they learn that? I have never seen any Mizuno production figures for Pete Rose or any other player.

Plus, as we have discussed, the model PR4192 came with two different knobs. Did the shipment of 30 bats include both knobs, or was one shipped earlier in the season, and the other later?

Also, the article says, "His trademark quick swing not nearly as quick as it used to be, Rose ordered his bats a little lighter than usual to shorten up his motion. The bats were 34 inches long, and weighed 31.6 ounces." Again, where did they learn that the bats weighed 31.6 ounces? That's an odd number. It sounds like weight of one particular PR4192 bat that was recently weighed, not the weight of Rose's bats at the time of shipment.

Chuck,

Where are you going with all of this?

Do you really think these guys at DEADSPIN would just make this stuff UP as they go? Do you really question whether they did their due diligence and made some calls to Mizuno, checked out what info they got, and then went with it WITHOUT making their list, and checking it twice?

This is, believe it or not, a professional news media who has a responsibility to report facts. They are open to lawsuits if what they print is not reflective of what they were told. And they check out what they are told, otherwise they would be spending all of their time in court instead of posting breaking news in the sports world.

Please...what is your agenda here?

[tacprc]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

Chuck,

The guys at deadspin DID contact the photographer, Bob Bartosz, and Bob confirmed to them, without question, that photo of Pete with that bat was taken BY HIM on JULY 4th, 1985, in Philadelphia while the Reds were visiting the Phillies.

A quick check on baseball-reference.com will verify the fact these two teams played on the weekend, Chuck. I hope this all clarifies things for you.

This is too serious an issue to be posting sympathetic "views" to confuse the readers. We should all try to refrain from waivering from the facts. Pete Rose and his people will have to come out and make a statement on what's out there. The facts are out for everone to see, and I think there's much of a possibility to explain all of these issues away. I don't see a batting cage next to Pete in that picture. I don't see a batting practice jersey. I do see a game jersey, a helmet, a serious looking Pete Rose with a weighted bat getting ready to hit...pretty compelling evidence to the average Joe...

deadspin says the July 4th weekend. You say July 4th. It sounds like you have more concrete information than the guy who allegedly talked to Bob Bartosz.

I say "allegedly" because Bob told Bill that he didnt' want to take the time to go through all his negatives to find the Rose photo in question, but he apparently had a change of heart when the deadspin reporter contacted him. Really?

I have sent an email message to Bob. I will let everyone know what I hear back.

Yes, I have checked the 1985 Reds schedule and boxscores on baseball-reference.com. The Reds only played 12 games against the Phillies in 1985 -- six at home, and six on the road.

Going into the series from July 4 through 7, he was batting .286. He went 1 for 9 in the series, and his average dropped to .279.

Pete always wore a batting helmet during batting practice.

I don't know if the Reds wore bp jerseys on the road in 1985. They did in 1984. I have several hundred glossy and wire photos of Pete Rose from 1984-86, but didn't find one from 1985 where he was wearing a bp jersey on the road. I do have some from home (Riverfront).

In the many photos that I have of Pete in the on-deck circle, he is always kneeling.

Is that a green wall or astroturf behind Pete in the Bartosz photo? There seems to be a lot of blue in the background. Are these possibly blue helmets? Neither the Reds nor Phillies had blue uniforms or helmets.

[STLHAMMER32]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you said. Almost.

Anyone more famous than Jeter in New York? I hope you meant "today", because you have Babe Ruth, Sweet Lou, Joe D., and Mickey Mantle chuckling in the clouds if you meant of "all time".

That all said, he still falls way short.

Yes, I mean "today", I guess I should have made that more clear.

[Rich Ellis]

Re: Photo matched PR4192 Rose bat with surprise!!!!

This story is gaining legs.

Deadspin, Yahoo, Cincy's paper, Sporting News and USA TODAY. And
I was just interviewed by WCCO TV and Radio Sports Personality Mike Max on my expert opinion on the photo match and what my thoughts were on the bat. We did a TV spot at the WCCO studios and also did a spot for radio. The radio portion may air today before the Twins game. I don't know when the TV spot will air.

I have been on Maxy's show before over the years and he really likes to talk about sports memorabilia and its always a lot of fun.

I spoke to Bill yesterday for about an hour and it was a pleasure speaking to Bill.

Here is what I told Maxy in my interview, that I believed the photo of Rose holding the bat is in fact the same bat Bill owns. Which I explained to Bill over the phone yesterday.