MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

[aeneas01]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

Hey, Robert, I think this is the best part of the forum, and I love the research aspect (particularly the addition photomatching resources). Being fairly simple myself, my post was a bit simpler than you think. I was not placing any "faith" in MEARS whatsoever. In fact, my point was that MEARS claimed inability to find ANY early 1974 warmup was curious as there were some simple things they could have done to determine this one way or another. Little did we know that it was as easy as Bronx-Burner demonstrated, a huge miss for an authenticator like MEARS. To close the loop I would love to see a photo of the previously authenticated Jazz "Late 74/75" warmup to determine whether it matches the one pictured.

yes, mears' inability to locate supporting images/documentation for items they've graded/authenticated (and attach big dollar values to) is indeed disturbing - they've done it before and they continue to do it. even worse, mears has also been caught claiming that they've style-matched items yet was unable to produce proof of these style-matches (photos) when their bluff was called (hopefully this is not the case with the maravich jacket they've claimed to have evaluated).

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=132237&postcount=13

and while we're at it:



...

[xpress34]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

One more...

on this You Tube video with Bill Walton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk-JJX2SRHc

At the 46 sec mark you see Maravich and the Rest of the Jazz 'warming up' wearing the same Jackets as the pic I just posted.... in fact, regardless of the year, this is the ONLY style Jacket I can find for the NO Jazz between 1974 and 1979 (Maravich's Years).

The Mears Jacket makes me wonder if it wasn't actually made - not necessarily as a Salesman's Sample - BEFORE 1974 (like in 1973) as a RETAIL item before the Team Logo had been declared.

I have seen items similar to this happen TWICE hear in Denver - when the Rockies were announces, there was tons of stuff made with Colorado Rockies on it, but NO team Logo BEFORE the Inaugural 1993 season and same thing happened in 1994-1995 with the Avalanched before the 1995-96 Inaugural season.

Just throwing it out there as another possible scenario since I have yet to see ANY NO Jazz warm up jacket pictures that don't have the traditional JAZZ logo on the front.

- Smitty

[xpress34]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

Here's a photo from SI showing Pete wearing a Warm Up that resembles the one the other player is wearing in the B&W - JAZZ on front and Horizontal Stripes running around the sleeves and NO Collar:



- Smitty

I forgot to mention that this photo is also clearly from the 1974-75 season and shows a much better image of the 'style' of warm ups.

Why clearly from 74-75? You can see one of the 4's under Pete's jacket from his 44 that he only wore in 74-75 according to Bronx.

- Smitty

[xpress34]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

Sorry for so many posts, just keep catching other things here - and fwiw, I'm a BASEBALL guy, but jerseys are jerseys and I'm not an 'expert', but a few other things caught my eye...

ALL of the other 'similar style' Warm Ups from other teams shown in Robert's original post have the team LOGO on the front or the Team Name in the OFFICIAL style font or design - not what appear to be ironed on letters.

Also, the NOB - if you look close at the pics of Pete in the warm up with Jazz on the front, you'll see the NOP (Name on Plate) - NOT NOB - as you can see the corner of the Name Plate sticking up and many of the other styles show NOP, not NOB as the eBay item.

- Smitty

[Mark17]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

Someone mentioned the fact MEARS seems to be updating the item description in response to the questions raised here about this jacket. I thought someone from MEARS posts here sometimes... if they are monitoring this thread I'd love to hear their updated defense of this situation, from the ethics of the acquisition, to the authentication with zero provenance or supporting photos.

Honestly, this is so bad it reminds me of the "TSA" 8-page COA/LOA of that Lou Gehrig "gamer." At least with that one, they had a style match (Gehrig using a bat with squared-off barrel end.)

[MSpecht]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

"TSA these are scholars,philosophers,doctors,lawyers,lawmen etc at levels you wont even see in movies. One of these men has met Gehrig personally recently thats right you read right."


Well, TSA also had the advantage of talking to Lou directly...thus the authentication coming straight from the (Iron) Horse's mouth.


Mike jackitout7@aol.com

[aeneas01]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

Someone mentioned the fact MEARS seems to be updating the item description in response to the questions raised here about this jacket. I thought someone from MEARS posts here sometimes... if they are monitoring this thread I'd love to hear their updated defense of this situation, from the ethics of the acquisition, to the authentication with zero provenance or supporting photos.

Honestly, this is so bad it reminds me of the "TSA" 8-page COA/LOA of that Lou Gehrig "gamer." At least with that one, they had a style match (Gehrig using a bat with squared-off barrel end.)

i'm with you, this is quite bad - "from the ethics of the acquisition, to the authentication with zero provenance or supporting photos" as you so well put. but what on earth could mears possibly say in their defense other than "sorry guys, you caught us once again."? shame on mears.

i noticed that the jacket ended up closing at just above $4k (after sitting at $1.5k-$2.5k for much of the time towards the end of the auction) which, coincidentally, is the same amount mears paid for the thing. given mears' shenanigans concerning this jacket, one has to wonder if mears won the thing back, not wanting to take a loss on it....

The Mears Jacket makes me wonder if it wasn't actually made - not necessarily as a Salesman's Sample - BEFORE 1974 (like in 1973) as a RETAIL item before the Team Logo had been declared.

I have seen items similar to this happen TWICE hear in Denver - when the Rockies were announces, there was tons of stuff made with Colorado Rockies on it, but NO team Logo BEFORE the Inaugural 1993 season and same thing happened in 1994-1995 with the Avalanched before the 1995-96 Inaugural season.

Just throwing it out there as another possible scenario since I have yet to see ANY NO Jazz warm up jacket pictures that don't have the traditional JAZZ logo on the front.

excellent points/observations express - why the generic/common lettering on the jacket rather than any hint of the sans serif font style the jazz used for their nobs during their inaugural season? why no team logo on the jacket? these weren't red flags as far as mears was concerned? also, didn't maravich's 1974/75 jerseys (and presumably jacket) sport the name "pistol" on the back rather than "maravich"? whatever the case, good call xpress...




...

[CollectGU]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

I've seen them pull items for less than this, but there is no way dave or troy is going to chalk up for $4k (if that is what they paid) out of their pockets to a mistake. Dave Gob reads these posts and I have yet to hear him chime in on this.........

Dave

[trsent]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

I've seen them pull items for less than this, but there is no way dave or troy is going to chalk up for $4k (if that is what they paid) out of their pockets to a mistake. Dave Gob reads these posts and I have yet to hear him chime in on this.........

Dave

I looked at the MEARS forum for the first time in a long, long time, like since when Dave Grob took something I said personally and I just stopped reading their forum.

Needless to say, no response about the questions raised here.

[CollectGU]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

I don't see the jacket listed anymore in the completed auction, but Robert says he saw the final bid at 4k (was it a no reserve auction, if so it should be listed as sold)? Did they pull the item AFTER the auction ended or was it bought back by them?

Dave

[LWMM]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

I don't see the jacket listed anymore in the completed auction, but Robert says he saw the final bid at 4k (was it a no reserve auction, if so it should be listed as sold)? Did they pull the item AFTER the auction ended or was it bought back by them?

Dave

The page is still up, and mearsonlineauctions.com still shows it in the "Current Auction Highlights" scrollbar. The catalogue however does not show all of the items anymore, including the Maravich jersey and the Sporting News Archives Collection.

http://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=19034

[CollectGU]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

I see what happened - it wasn'y a single auction. It appears they had two auctions, one ending on October 30th and one ending November 1st, so to see Oct. 30th, you need to go to archives...My bad.......

Dave

[commando]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

It never ceases to amaze me how often this scenario arises.

Here's the scenario as I see it.

When a brand new team needs to decide on a uniform style, the decision is obviously a very important one. The selection of colors and patterns are of the utmost importance to the branding and marketing of the team, both for the present and future.

Do we all agree on this so far?

OK, so usually, the team brass will request and be presented with numerous styles of uniforms to be considered. Usually, some attributes of a sample will be liked... other attributes not so much. This "tweaking" process can vary team by team, of course, but one thing is certain: prototype uniforms are ALWAYS manufactured for professional teams. Whether they are saved or not is the only real question.

Not exactly brain surgery so far, and believe me, if it were, I would be the guy scrubbing the sink afterward for $12 an hour.

So, sticking with the prototype scenario... Isn't it common for prototypes and salesman samples to feature a star player from the team? Even the Lew Alcindor jersey pictured earlier fits this scenario, even though it isn't a prototype or salesman sample by definition. Milwaukee needed a jersey to help announce their new STAR player, so Sand Knit quickly produced a jersey that was probably tagged differently than the usual jerseys issued to the team.

You have to understand one of the reasons why so many star player jerseys have these strange anomalies when it comes to random details, like tagging or minor design differences. It's usually because of what I stated above. Was Sand Knit more likely to make a prototype Jazz warm-up jacket featuring Pete Maravich or Stu Lantz?

All I am saying is that the logical conclusion here, in my mind, is that this was a prototype item. Why wouldn't it be? To me, the question is not whether it's "real" or altered, or a Sand Knit item. I'll bet the warm-up jacket in question looked EXACTLY the same now as it did while in the hands of Jazz brass (no pun intended).

Here are my points for calling this a prototype:

1. Not a single photo of a similar item can be found, even featuring other players.

2. The item appears to be from the inaugural season era.

3. The item features the franchise player, Pete Maravich.

4. The item does not carry exclusive team tagging.

5. The item does not feature the Jazz team logo, which may have not yet been chosen at the time.

None of these five points guarantee that this is a prototype. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that in my opinion, this item favors being a prototype. Isn't that the most likely choice? Instead of making the leap of faith that this style was actually worn by the team -- with no real evidence to prove it -- can't we make the more logical assumption that this was one style that was considered, but ultimately not chosen?

It's a GREAT warm-up. I love it. I have always enjoyed collecting proofs and prototypes, because they are so rare and unusual. And I'm tellin' ya, until more evidence surfaces, I think that's exactly what this item is.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

Here are my points for calling this a prototype:

1. Not a single photo of a similar item can be found, even featuring other players.

2. The item appears to be from the inaugural season era.

3. The item features the franchise player, Pete Maravich.

4. The item does not carry exclusive team tagging.

5. The item does not feature the Jazz team logo, which may have not yet been chosen at the time.

Anthony
You listed all the reasons that this MAY be a prototype, that I was going to post.
If this item was described as an "un-used, one-of-a-kind, prototype warm-up" and sold at Grey Flannel's hall of fame auction...what price would it fetch?

[commando]

Re: MEARS Mumbo-Jumbo?

Anthony
You listed all the reasons that this MAY be a prototype, that I was going to post.
If this item was described as an "un-used, one-of-a-kind, prototype warm-up" and sold at Grey Flannel's hall of fame auction...what price would it fetch?

Sounds like we're on the same page here (and I'm glad, because when it comes to Sand Knit, "you da man.")

The game-used hobby seems to put its highest value on rare items that were actually worn in a game (from what I have seen). I am personally a huge fan of prototypes, and I know there are other serious, advanced collectors who also like that kind of thing, but I think the real bidding war would occur if the shooting-shirt in question was worn by Maravich. His wearing of this top would change this from a "niche" item to a much more widely-collected arena, probably with much more bidding interest.