Authentication Issues - Help Needed

[GameBats]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

Hi Joel,

"The lathe bat is enough proof to justify the item as being genuine according to everything I have found"

What is "everything I have found"? I would like to agree with you on this bat, just need to hear some reasonable proof the bat is legit. Please explain to me how the bat is legit? The lathe bat alone is clearly not enough proof.

[trsent]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

Hi Joel,

"The lathe bat is enough proof to justify the item as being genuine according to everything I have found"

What is "everything I have found"? I would like to agree with you on this bat, just need to hear some reasonable proof the bat is legit. Please explain to me how the bat is legit? The lathe bat alone is clearly not enough proof.

I appreciate your concern, but remember, and here is what appears to have been forgotten in this whole thread: The MEARS letter is a letter of opinion, not a letter of proof.

There is never 100% proof on anything. You can have Barry Bonds take a jersey off after a game, video tape him handing you the jersey and that is still on 100% proof. It is great proof, but really, how can anyone be sure the jersey wasn't switched somewhere down the line?

The point here is that Mike Rose wants MEARS to refund his money, but there is no definitive proof that the item is not genuine. MEARS gave an opinion, which they have justified using the lathe bat.

Since MEARS would have to pay $6050.00 if issues were found with the item as that was the last public sale price, I have offered to match that price and buy the item myself.

[GameBats]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

Just wondering, was the fact a MEARS employee authenticated his own item disclosed on the letter of opinion?

[staindsox]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

Go talk to Dave Bushing about authenticating his own items and then re-selling.

[GameBats]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

I'm only concerned with the Tris Speaker bat at the moment. Is that a yes, no or I don't know?

[trsent]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

Just wondering, was the fact a MEARS employee authenticated his own item disclosed on the letter of opinion?

Go talk to Dave Bushing about authenticating his own items and then re-selling.

I'm only concerned with the Tris Speaker bat at the moment. Is that a yes, no or I don't know?

GameBats, John Gruja and staindsox, Chris Sexton, I would think if you were going to post and wish to have your posts taken seriously on an adult forum, you would sign you names to your posts. It adds credibility.

In the meantime, we have had this debate on other threads. MEARS will authenticate items they own and the publish a list of items that they own that are currently consigned to major auction houses.

When Mike Rose bought the bat, he knew the item was sold by Dave Bushing to Vintage Authentics, and if he didn't, how did he later find this out? When Dave Bushing sold the item to Vintage Authentics with a MEARS A5 letter, they knew it was Dave's item. After that, disclosure is finished.

MEARS does not put in their letter if their staff personally ever owned at item. That is not going to happen and that is not the issue.

From what I have gathered:

- Dave Bushing sold the bat to Vintage Authentics with the grade of A5.

- Vintage Authentics offered the bat to Mike Rose who turned it down.

- Dave Bushing found more evidence of the bat's history and regraded the bat with the grade of A7. Vintage did not pay more for the bat even though it had a grade hike.

- Vintage called Mike Rose again, offered the same bat, but didn't tell Mike Rose it was the same bat now with the grade of A7.

- Mike Rose bought the bat for a large price, but he never even saw the bat or read the letter from MEARS which clearly lets the owner know the item was upgraded in grade from A5 to A7. If Mike Rose had read this letter, there would be no debate on this forum now, right?

- Mike Rose consigns the bat in the next Vintage Authentics auction where the bat sells for $6050.00 plus premium.

- It just happens Mike Rose is the buyer, so Mike bought the bat again, this time for much less.

- Mike Rose asks Vintage Authentics to work with him, a very profitable customer, as he is not happy with the whole situation including the fact that Vintage Authentics never once told Mike Rose that the A5 and A7 bats they were offering him where the same bat that had been reevaluated.

- Vintage Authentics tells Mike Rose that MEARS, who they fired for money reasons and switched to Lou Lampson as their head authenticator, has a guarantee if the item is not real and to deal with them. Nice customer service with a customer who is buying big dollar items.

- Mike Rose contacts MEARS, and MEARS tells him that there is not proof the item is not genuine. There isn't. Just opinions by other people/authenticators. MEARS made an opinion, which is what they are paid to do.

- MEARS has stood behind their grade.

- Joel Alpert has offered to buy the bat for the last price paid, which is all MEARS would be liable for if the item was found to be not genuine. This price was $6050.00 plus buyers premium.

Many people have contacted me privately about this debate on the forum and told me they feel it is sour grapes by the current owner. I have offered to end the debate with my wallet, but even a few messages ago, Mike Rose told me he wanted around twenty-thousand for the item.

So, he is willing to sell the item, even though he disagrees with the grade, so this is not an issue of if the item is authentic or not, but rather an issue over money. Good luck with your lawsuit, I hope you include Vintage Authentics with MEARS because MEARS will only be liable for the last major sale price, which we all know is $6050.00 plus buyers premium.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Now, the topic questioned by the two users above.

Dave Bushing has, just as others have, bought items that he has written letters for. This is a known fact. MEARS makes it public knowledge any items they are selling with their letters.

If you think they should put it in their letters that they once owned an item, that is your opinion, but don't expect it to happen. You have a choice with your wallet if you are going to use MEARS's service to buy or sell merchandise.

Then again, if that is the case, I guess you should have anyone who ever writes a letter for any item put in the description if they or a member of their staff ever once owned the item. That would include PSA, PSA/DNA, Global Authentics, Grey Flannel, PSA/DNA Bats, Lou Lampson, PSI, etc.

It is never going to happen. The question is not a conflict of interest issue here, it is buyers remorse of an item that they didn't even view or view the letter upon paying over $20K for!

My offer to buy and end this debate still stands.

[mikeroseny]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

To provide some clarification….

When Mike Rose bought the bat, he knew the item was sold by Dave Bushing to Vintage Authentics, and if he didn't, how did he later find this out? When Dave Bushing sold the item to Vintage Authentics with a MEARS A5 letter, they knew it was Dave's item. After that, disclosure is finished.

We actually asked Troy Kinunen if this bat ever belong to Dave Bushing after we discovered the issues with the bat. When asked, Troy said he was not at liberty to discuss what was ever in Dave Bushing’s personal collection. It was only after we mentioned to MEARS that we might take this issue public for collector’s opinions that Dave Grob made a post that included the statement “As far as ownership history and timeline, I will also make this known. Dave Bushing at one time owned that bat and sold it to a private hobby entity who has never been a part of either SCDA or MEARS. This transaction pre-dates MEARS.” That was the first time anyone from MEARS admitted that Bushing ever owned the bat. Further, it was only after I made this public that Dave Bushing explicitly revealed that the “private hobby entity” who bought the bat from him was Steve Jensen.

MEARS does not put in their letter if their staff personally ever owned at item. That is not going to happen and that is not the issue.

That is very interesting. I would think this should be disclosed given the potential conflict of interest and I would have to believe most of the collecting community would agree.

- Dave Bushing sold the bat to Vintage Authentics with the grade of A5.

Dave Bushing has publicly stated he “sold this bat as a pro model game issued Tris Speaker for a fairly nominal sum which the buyer submitted for a grade of A5 due to a length that had previously been unsubstanciated (sic) for Speaker.” Are you saying Bushing graded the bat an A5 knowing it was only a “pro model game issued” bat with a length that could not be attributed to Speaker? As a side note, that is also pretty interesting.

- Mike Rose bought the bat for a large price, but he never even saw the bat or read the letter from MEARS which clearly lets the owner know the item was upgraded in grade from A5 to A7. If Mike Rose had read this letter, there would be no debate on this forum now, right?

Joel, once again, this is also incorrect. When we bought the bat initially the only document MEARS had generated on the bat was their “Letter of Opinion”. That “Letter of Opinion” stated the bat had been upgraded but didn’t mention the bat was the same one that Dave Bushing and Troy Kinunen wrote a “Letter of Authenticity” on when they worked for SCDA. Thus, we did not know it was the same bat as the one previously offered. Further, the worksheet documents created by MEARS were actually done after we bought the bat back from the auction (you will notice the first page of the worksheet is actually dated 8/22/05) at our request. That is, the supportive documentation was only done by MEARS after we requested it when we realized the grade may have been in error. Once again, while the world has changed since the time of our purchase, at the time we actually trusted MEARS and didn’t think we had any reason not to trust their grade.

- Mike Rose contacts MEARS, and MEARS tells him that there is not proof the item is not genuine. There isn't. Just opinions by other people/authenticators. MEARS made an opinion, which is what they are paid to do.

Joel, what you are failing to recognize here is that there are objective facts that cannot be attributed to “opinions”. That is, the fact that there are factory records is not an “opinion”. MEARS’ documentation which states there were none is either deliberate fraud or an error. We have given them the benefit of the doubt by stating we believe they simply made an error and that this may not have been intentional. In addition, MEARS has consistently (and in our minds inappropriately) tried to justify a 33 inch bat for Speaker. However, this bat is only 32 ¼ inches long. Once again this is an objective fact that cannot be attributed to an “opinion”. The bat can be measured. In fact, if anyone would like to measure it in person we will be happy to show them exactly how long this bat really is. Once again, MEARS is either mistaken or deliberately tried to conceal something to mislead the buyer. Once again, we are assuming it is an error and not intentional. Either way, these facts cannot be attributed to “opinion”.

- MEARS has stood behind their grade.

We believe this is the really sad part given all the facts that now exist.

- Joel Alpert has offered to buy the bat for the last price paid, which is all MEARS would be liable for if the item was found to be not genuine. This price was $6050.00 plus buyers premium.

Joel, we do have one suggestion here. If “you” are going to make a post, you might want to consistently refer to yourself in the first person. That is, I would use the word “I” when referring to yourself (as you do in the rest of the post) rather than “Joel Alpert” as you do here. With the exception of Tarzan, Elmo and Bob Dole, I don’t think many people refer to themselves in the third person any more. Given your initial comment in your recent post to make sure the names of the posters were displayed, I think you might not want to do anything that would cause others to wonder if you are really writing your posts.

So, he is willing to sell the item, even though he disagrees with the grade, so this is not an issue of if the item is authentic or not, but rather an issue over money.

This is an amazing statement. We have already said Vintage has offered to re-sell the bat in an attempt to get us our money back and we declined since we didn’t want this mis-graded bat going to some unknowing collector. To be honest, we see your offer as really coming from MEARS since this issue, in actuality, has absolutely nothing to do with you. If I’m not mistaken you have even mentioned a number of times that you are not even a bat collector. In fact, your claim that the lathe bat provides enough proof to justify this grade despite the existence of factory records that do not match the specifications of this bat is evidence of your lack of understanding of the Hillerich & Bradsby system and relative points of discussion. That is, we would be willing to sell it back to you as someone clearly representing MEARS but not to anyone else in the collecting community.

Good luck with your lawsuit, I hope you include Vintage Authentics with MEARS because MEARS will only be liable for the last major sale price, which we all know is $6050.00 plus buyers premium.

Joel, I don’t think you are qualified to determine what we are entitled to in this situation. As an officer in the Navy I was the prosecutor in more than 95 trials and even I’m not qualified to decide what a judicial body would decide. As mentioned, the second purchase was made to keep the bat in our possession since it was clear by the collecting community’s actions there was something wrong with it. If a judicial body finds that MEARS’ authentication was flawed or even fraudulent, they would most likely be liable for the original purchase amount.

Mike Rose
mikeroseny@yahoo.com

[trsent]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

Mike, great post. I was in the movies and emails came over my cell phone because you made a comment about me listing a timeline and refering to myself in that timeline in the first person. Don't worry about me and my style of type. I once wrote a book that never was published because of a robery in my home, but I have no problems writing.

You do not know anything about my retations and my offer is from me and only me. Good luck in court, I'm taking the don't. (A craps term)

As many people have mentioned to me, they feel your attack is a personal attack against MEARS and you have sour grapes for paying too much for an item that you didn't research. The bat records do not mean that MEARS can't make an opinion based on other proof.

Have a happy holiday, my offer is still on the table.

[staindsox]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

Joel,

What is your problem? John and I are as much of adults as anyone on this forum. Secondly, there is absolutely no reason WHATSOEVER to question our credibility. I suggest you offer an apology to both of us. As far as my Dave Bushing comment goes, it is well known and well debated that be purchased a DiMaggio item, authenticated it himself, and then resold it, which does bring credibility into question. I was responding to John that yes, it is a problem and that no authenticators try to keep this quiet. You have no reason to insult either of us. Your comments were out of line and an apology is in order.

Chris

[GameBats]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

"If you think they should put it in their letters that they once owned an item, that is your opinion, but don't expect it to happen. You have a choice with your wallet if you are going to use MEARS's service to buy or sell merchandise.

Then again, if that is the case, I guess you should have anyone who ever writes a letter for any item put in the description if they or a member of their staff ever once owned the item. That would include PSA, PSA/DNA, Global Authentics, Grey Flannel, PSA/DNA Bats, Lou Lampson, PSI, etc.

It is never going to happen. The question is not a conflict of interest issue here, it is buyers remorse of an item that they didn't even view or view the letter upon paying over $20K for!"

Joel,

Once again, I asked a question in order to gather the facts. I am suprised to hear MEARS, PSA, GREY Flannel etc. does not include within a letter of opinion the fact the item was once owned by one of their employees? Why wouldn't they? If a respected authenticator once owned a particular item it should only enhance the item. I happily own plenty of items that were owned at one time or another by both Bushing and Taube. It would be pretty hard to find a quality item that hasn't passed through one or both of their hands/collections. "It is never going to happen" Why not?

In regards to a member signing a post. I never gave it much thought. I believe it's the content of the post that's important. The fact you sign your name to your post has no bearing on how I view the content. If it's important to you for a member to identify him or herself you should ask them to do so. I'm sure they'd be happy too. I think most adults will agree.

John

[staindsox]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

I think you are absolutely correct in all your points John. The Bushing item I mentioned was a Di Maggio streak bat. There was a great deal of controversy with this one because many people believed the provenance was shaky at best. It was a real DiMaggio bat, but Mr. Bushing called it a 56 game streak bat, which was possible, but may also have been a bit of wishful thinking. Calling it a streak bat exponentially raised the value of the piece. Some may view it as a conflict of interest to certify your own bats and then resell them at a huge profit, but both MEARS and Bushing are the best in the business in their knowledge and resources. That's why they get the big ticket items. Like I said, great points John. A great post.

Chris

[trsent]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

Chris and John, I was not trying to insult anyone. I just feel if you are going to question someone's credibility you should take the time to sign your post to stand behind it.

I agree with the comment that if I have a MEARS letter that states that Dave Bushing owned the item at the time of authentication, I would also find that a plus, but others feel there is a conflict of interest issue here.

I do not know of any authentication company that lists this in their letter, maybe it is a good debate to start on the MEARS forum that they will consider a change for.

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I was thinking while out all night tonight, and Mike, I want to make a comment so you do not think I am picking on you or your issue.

This forum is great because it is a place to discuss and debate topics. If everyone agrees with every topic it would be like a country with only one political party and no choice. This forum helps find issues within the industry.

Your issue may be a major issue with the policy of a MEARS guarantee not being what you expected, but I believe there has to be no doubt when they go to the next level and refund an item. Also, I believe the guarantee works where there is a chain of how the money is collected and refunded, I do not know details.

Have a great holiday, everyone!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

personally, i can't wait for troy's research to come out. given that he's been on it since august 16, this should really be something to knock everyone's socks off. can't wait!

i realize it had to take a backseat to that urgent and pressing study of cassius clay but hopefully it's back on track now!

rudy.

[trsent]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

personally, i can't wait for troy's research to come out. given that he's been on it since august 16, this should really be something to knock everyone's socks off. can't wait!

i realize it had to take a backseat to that urgent and pressing study of cassius clay but hopefully it's back on track now!

rudy.

Rudy, you and Michael O'Keefe should wait by your monitor for Troy's update.

I bet Troy is busy with authentication deals for major auction houses and that would be why his response has been delayed. The guy is allowed to work, right?

[CollectGU]

Re: Authentication Issues - Help Needed

I am still waiting to hear back from Troy on the Yogi Berra mask issue since July 2nd. I wouldn't hold your breath....Personally I feel that was a bigger travesty than this...

Dave