Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

[dcgreg25]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

dplettn contacted me to ask to post a response on the Johnson helmet issue. The facts have been presented and discussed at length so the thread will not be reopened. Below are dplettn's comments as they were emailed to me.

"On March 19th, a JO Post on a surviving thread {which lacks the timeline and marketing facts JO hasn't disputed} claimed the indention in the decal above the GAL in "Bengals" perfect match. We (JO) will post better matches when the helmet is back in our hands.

The surviving (non-closed) thread has a title which deflects from the core focus of my original thread: false and high-pressure marketing practices.

As of April 19th, I've seen no further posting by JO on the subject. Also, the original thread (with the time-line) remained closed, making it impossible for parties that have seen both helmets to comment in that context. The JO helmet has appeared (newly added to their other Bengals helmets) on JO's website since March 19th.

The "indentation" image posted by the moderator on behalf of JO, and then later posted by JO on a new "live" thread which removes the marketing fact based time-line (JO was given opportunity to dispute any facts) from discussion is actually not a photo match. It is a style match. The "indentation" is a design feature of an adhesive element that was applied over both the JO's helmet's and my own at the same location at the white portion manufactured at the rear of the helmet by Schutt.

Whether the helmet was or wasn't used at any point of any game is not the central issue in my opinion. In my opinion, the central issue is a pattern of false statements and misrepresentations which first make a mockery the hobby, and more recently made a mockery of our forum. I hope now that these facts are publicly available, they will prove context. Context to the assertions of JO about its "photo match" and to the attacks on myself personally for not sharing any photos of my helmet (which I never found relevant to the core focus of the thread).

I will add that the source of my helmet which I've not revealed publicly, was said by Jarrod Oldridge to have told him more recently of the sale made to me. This appears to have trespassed on the confidentiality of my purchase.

I happen to own seat licenses in Paul Brown Stadium. I have inquired with the counterparty to my seat licenses whether my seat licenses might be revoked should I publish about that that counterparty's various dealings and the business practices inherent. That counter-party has been non-responsive to my specific question instead leaving me to wonder what it would hold the agreement's language to mean."

[dcgreg25]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

JO Sports contacted me and asked me to post a photomatch of their helmet from 9/26/10 vs. Carolina. Below are the pics provided:

[dcgreg25]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

At this point both JO and dplettn have made their positions clear on the topic. I am going to go ahead and lock the thread but would be happy to allow JO Sports or dplettn to post if either has more relevant information to share with the forum.

It is a site policy on the Auction Items thread to contact buyers with questions or issues before calling out items publicly on the thread. Perhaps if the dplettn was aware that Johnson wore multiple helmets per season this situation could have been avoided. JO Sports is a retail outlet and as such they market their products aggressively. While they may not have provided a photomatch on the item, it does not mean the helmet was not potentially used by Johnson. If either party has more facts to add, please do not hesitate to email me or one of the other moderators.

[sox83cubs84]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

I agree with 2 previous posters. This thread should be closed until either the aggrieved collector posts pictures of his item, or when JO Sports shares its findings with the Forum based on the Monday meeting scheduled with Bengals front office personnel.

Dave Miedema

[mad87man]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Here is my 2 cents. Turf can cause grass stains. Not as many or harsh ones but they sure can. It is fake grass with dyes in it. If you slide or w/e i see no reason why you wouldn't/couldn't get them

As far as your helmet. I seem to start thinking your BSing. I mean you claim you don't wanna or can't post pictures for whatever reason. Why? I don't know. I know if i ever had a Chad helmet i would plaster those pictures all over.

[dplettn]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

I've already offered photos to Chris for his responsible awareness and confidence as moderator and if Chris demands it for the greater good of the hobby, I'll post pictures publicly for all the forum (and technically the world) to see. I just don't think my photos are relevant to the misstatements and marketing practices. What do GUU members think of the use in the helmet at JO, as pictured? Does my helmet have any relevance to that?

I personally believe that factual statements of business practices as they exist are relevant, every bit as relevant as to whether I want or don't want to share photographs of anything in my personal, private collection publicly.

I'm also aware that JO Sports has its fans. And, I'm sure many of them have bought good items. I've made no statement that JO sells stuff that isn't good. But, at the particular price points how loosely should things be marketed in various ways? I'm curious the opinions of others.

[dplettn]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Listen, I asked for your help to PROVE your helmet to be the ONLY helmet worn, but you declined because you have “animosity” and “you don’t want to give me leverage”. So you said you will let the collecting community make the decision.

You did suggest I needed to prove your helmet was never worn; you were quite demanding of it. You asked me many times about whether I had animosity. I kept saying I respected your ingenuity and eventually I did acknowledge that personally I'd be better off if the merchandise was instead (still) going into the pro shop, where I could afford it.

You are right about one thing, I made clear I had no interest of giving you leverage with the team. What does that matter if you already have leverage via your "exclusive" contract? And, are you going to post that?

Hey, if you do want to talk about things from our conversation which were interesting, please elaborate on your commentary about "Bengals Securities" and how after seeing what I had you may need to involve them. Was that your effort to intimidate me, or is there even any such thing?

[Sportsislife]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Agree with dewey. This thread serves no useful purpose to the forum or it's members as it doesn't inform anybody of any substantial material as far as learning something, asking a question or warning the community of fraudulent material. This appears to be a case of an individual with a personal issue with a company. Also, to member who started this thread, to refuse to show photos or give any type of non vague info about the item in a thread you started but expect a private company to post their contracts is completely assinine.

[dplettn]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

At that point I got the feeling there was a agenda on your end. Well, come to find out there was. I asked you if you have animosity of our company because we have a deal with the Bengals? Your response “yes there is some animosity. Because you have cornered the market for Bengals equipment and I cannot afford to buy at your prices. And I cannot get stuff as easy from my source” and you went on to say that I have never done anything to become your “friend”. So I asked you what we have that you wanted, your response “I want a Carson Palmer game worn jersey” you then stated “I can’t afford it at your prices” so I asked you to make a fair offer for the jersey - your response floored me “I will give you $350 for the Carson Palmer jersey” - enough said, I do not have to elaborate.

Are you really going to make statements like that as if they were factual? You have quoted things that I’m quite confident did not come out of my mouth. Perhaps that doesn't matter any more than claims that 'just salesmen' make about photo-matches



You’ve taken things such as my expressing that I have no allegiance to you, that I owe nothing to you by virtue of any business relationship with you and changed them while applying quotes. You’ve put my expressions into alternate words of your chosing which present a tone that was not never present.



Did I express disappointment that economically ordinary folks like myself are adversely affected by your cornering the market? Yes.


But factually, I complimented your ingenuity of extracting the maximum price in so cornering the market.


I’ve also expressed numerous times to you and your firm that I’d have an interest in a Palmer jersey if you ever went to liquidate it. I had been hesitant to make any offer. I did eventually say I'd spend $300 or something in that neck of the woods because after I expressed why I hadn't made any offer at all, one of your salesmen suggested that for Bengal merchandise 10% of your stickers prices might even come to be doable. I'm not going to quote them because I don't recall their exact words. But, that was the general content as I understood it. Quoting somebody absent their precise words is wrong.



The context of our conversation of a Palmer jersey was that they have been stagnant in your inventory and Palmer may not even be a Bengal next year. I’m not going to quote you but your response as I understood it was that USC guys would spend $2500 on Palmer Jerseys. Listen, you are in business, and you have every right in the world to be ALL about the money, to foster a culture of aggressive selling tactics, and having whatever authentication standards you see fit. But, let’s not pretend I owe you anything, because I don’t.


By the way, there can't be grass stains on jerseys worn over turf. But those sort of details present in the marketing of your Palmer jerseys may not matter much to you. As you expressed to me generally (again no quotes) you have tons of stuff and you can't inundate yourself with too many details.


Personally, I just don't think you've marketed your company as a company that is flex with details, definitions, and precision. But, that is just my opinion.

[Dewey2007]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Mods, just my 2 cents but I would suggest closing this thread before it drags on and on like some threads are wont to do on this site. Obviously the OP is not willing to post photos of the helmet in question at this time to put this issue to bed and until he does this thread is going to turn into something more silly then it already has IMO. Already there has been 32 posts and not thread of evidence from the OP to support his claims.

[dplettn]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Everything everyone has posted here is exactly what I asked and expressed of you prior to you posting. Please send me pictures of your CJ helmet showing undisputable photomatching evidence to every game CJ wore your helmet, along with the game action photos. –your response “why would I want to help you.” “why would I want to give you leverage with the Bengals.” I responded and told you I don’t need leverage with the Bengals, my exclusive contract with the team is leverage. I just wanted to see your helmet and IF it is photomatched to every game you claim it is, so I could express my concerns with the team.

Your exclusive contract with the team is leverage, you say. May I please request that you post legal documentation as to your “exclusive” contract? You clearly would like to know whether the Bengals may have breached the exclusivity of a contract you claim to be exclusive. I’m particularly curious as to whether you even have an exclusive contract. I've recently heard words like "photomatching" used loosely by your firm, even associated with dates. How loosely are you using the word "exclusive"? If they did, did the Bengals have the right to sell a game used helmet to an entity other than your company?



People who spend thousands of dollars on Bengals season tickets annually, tickets that they can’t even give away might think they have a relationship with the team, much like you have a relationship with the team. Please, will you post your so called exclusive contract in full?


Respectfully Yours
Dan

[dplettn]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Dan, How is your agenda going now?

My “agenda”? Really, what agenda do I have for sharing a factual timeline of what your company pitched me?

Accusing somebody of having an “agenda” is a lot like demanding that they send you a minimum of 10 pictures of the inside and outside of your helmet, and photomatches for every game. I didn’t market anything to you in any form to you. Your company marketed to me as not only game used, but photomatched, on specific dates. What does my helmet have to do with whether JOs claims were true and whether JOs marketing practices were anywhere near ethical?

[nycpropain]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

You went from being "alarmed" and being accusatory to back peddling in the matter of what 2 days?

[dplettn]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

Seriously, the lighting??? On both the tweet image and the outdoor getty image??? Look at them both again.

Lighting, reflection, whatever you want to call it. Yes, seriously. Perhaps somebody else who owns a Schutt helmet with the same screw system can describe to you the indoor lighting's reflection off the screws.

[dplettn]

Re: Propositioned to buy a Game Used Helmet (duplicating what I own) by JO Sports

By the date of the tweet and the picture below from getty, that helmet matches one he was using in camp. Notice the screw on the right is white and the one on the left is silver.

[ATTACH]48695[/ATTACH]

dplettn,
does this match your helmet?

The Getty Photo is not in high enough resolution to search for abrasions on the outside of the helmet that are present on mine. Assuming it was around the July time, such abrasions may or may not yet have happened at that time. The Getty photo posted by Bulbus and the the cropped version of the July Ocho tweet both represent style matches (helmet, facemask, chinstrap) of the item I own.

With regard to the screws, they are all the same color. The photo believed be a poster to show two colors is actually showing alternate affects of light reflecting off the screw. I would like to be clear that my screws are in different rotational position from the Ocho tweet.

The screws I understand to screw out/in as part of changing out facemasks, although I've done no such thing.

It is my opinion after judging the use internal and external to my helmet in relation to other helmets that my helmet was used over lengths of time with multiple facemasks. That is not to offer an opinion as to whether JO's helmet was or was not ever used.

I never did hear from Chris as to whether he'd like access to photos as moderator. I did share photos with a trusted fellow GUU member today. For those who have taken the information as to how a helmet was marketed by JO with our without accurate detail and facts, and the availability here of photos of what JO is offering as Game Used (and was previously offering as "photomatched") as reason to question my character, it may benefit the forum to have somebody else comment as to what they can interpret from my photos of both my helmet and provenance.

Please know I am not suggesting that there are across the board problems with JOs merchandise, nor any problem at all. I know of one person who very much has great comfort (and rightfully so, I think) with the particular item they purchased from JO based on that item's characteristics. Also, I'm not suggesting my item is better than other people's items. No, I don't think my helmet has more economic value that other things that are posted on the forum every day. I totally respect and and every person's decisions to post photos of their items on GUU, even if I don't share in all their comforts. I wish I did share in that comfort because our items are a great pride to share with friends.