Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

[MikeKam]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

Mike, why would you think that PSA LOAs aren't signed? The Maris/Mantle (1964-66 Yankees) signed ball you have up on eBay is authenticated for the signatures, and signed by Zach Rullo. Is the blue signature printed onto the LOA?

I believed that all the signatures on a PSA autograph LOA were printed, I may be wrong.

[KGoldin]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

I believed that all the signatures on a PSA autograph LOA were printed, I may be wrong.

You are wrong
While there are printed signatures of all the staff members at the bottom of the letter, each letter is personally signed by the authenticator who personally inspected the item.

[TwinLakesPark]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

The business models practiced by Steve with Hollywood Investments and Scot with CelebzDirect are very different. I also believe the character of these 2 individuals is very different, but I am not here to debate character, but to look at business models. I have been fortunate to meet Scot in person on several occasions and had discussions with him about his business model and some of his challenges.

Scot purchases player collections. He has the balls to put a stack of money in his pocket and go meet a ballplayer that he might just not know at a location that he might not be familiar with. He might have an hour or two to view, inventory, appraise and purchase hundreds of items. During this time, you have no idea what the behavior/character of this player is like - is he going through a divorce, is he going bankrupt, is he just trying to get rid of junk, is he nice, is he a complete d!ck, is he a liar, is he an idiot, is he a fraud, is he a stand-up guy, is he a motivational speaker, or is he a father figure. Baseball players are people too, and all people are not good ones. So during this 1-2 hour meeting, who is writing up the LOA's for the player to sign? How long would it even take to write up 100 LOA's? Then what happens when the player signs 5 of them and says that he is done signing them? Do you walk away from the collection and tell him no thanks? There will be CelebzDirect LOA's with photocopied signatures; it is just not feasible to generate that many original LOA's in that short of a time frame. So why not just have the player sign 100 blank LOA’s and fill them out later? I am sure that has happened as well, but it sounds like a catch-22, because he will get roasted here for doing either of the above. I have personally dealt with several individuals who have purchased player collections and had issues with those player’s and getting LOA’s. At least Scot doesn’t misrepresent the fact it is a copy and is forthcoming about it.

So then what happens when Scot starts selling the items and finds out from one of us (probably posted in this forum) that the player(s) were either lying to him, misremembered, misrepresented, or didn’t really care? Who takes the heat for that? Who is the fraud then, your hero or Scot? How do you look your hero in the face and tell him he his is a liar, in his own trophy room? The numbers are not in Scot's favor as he buys in bulk. There will inevitably be bad stuff, there just will. But guess who will refund your money when something with your item isn't right? Scot.

Scot’s business is very valuable to us in this community; he goes out and finds collections that each and every one of us have an interest in. He is an asset.

Trying to steer back on topic, I have never liked the idea of LOA's, especially when adding the words "auction house" along with it, but I will save that rant for another thread on another day. To many people rely on a worthless piece of paper rather than conducting their own Due Diligence.

-Wes

[Hoosier39]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

Very well said, Wes. I personally dont care about their LoA's because I flat out won't buy an item if I don't think it's legit.

But, issues have been brought up about Scot doing some not so good stuff. So even tho he brings us a lot of good stuff, he isn't a saint either.

[ShaimOnYou]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

And speaking of MLB holograms. How many here have had to contact MLB to get an item corrected. I have. I have a ball that they credited to one hitter when it was actually another hitter. I contacted MLB and they corrected it after I proved it to them.

These Celebz Direct threads seem more like witch hunts sometimes.

And again, many of you put 100% faith and pay many times what something is actually worth just because a single person says it is what it is and signs a piece of paper.
How many threads have their been on here about mistakes by auction houses and those you hold up to such benevolence?

Roady,

You are correct that many collectors pay a premium, sometimes huge, for the secure feeling brought about by a third party authenticators blessing. Unfortunately every single one of them makes mistakes. And worse yet, some take liberties they shouldn't in making judgments on authenticity. So are they worth the fees they charge? That can only be answered on an individual basis.

But to clarify, I was not referring to 3rd party authenticators in my original post here. I was talking about marketing companies that develop a system that is flawed in practice so that at some point items of questionable nature can easily be slipped into the hobby. And why not? If they use a flawed authentication process that is accepted by collectors, who should be wear the blame? There is no witch hunt going on. We already know who we're dealing with here, so if a collector ends up with a questionable item at some point from Celebzdirect (or any marketing company for that matter), who would be surprised? It certainly would be easy to do so with their COA "copy" system in place. Just dirty up a few items, and make a few more copies.

Hearing RMoody say the hobby is headed this way in regards to the COA "concept" Celebzdirect is using is an incredible statement. It's also irresponsible and damaging to the hobby. In fact, the very claim of selling bad items after establishing a record of selling good ones has been brought up against the party in question in the past. Why accept a self-made "tool" to enable them to continue that practice? Some argue "It goes on in every single auction", "...because there are bad items out there everywhere. So do we want to clean it up, or pacify the perps with complacency? When the heat got to be unbearable, he cut off conversations, cursed customers out, then disappeared for a few years. Now he's back running a new company. Be it ASI, Elite Sports Marketing, or now Celebzdirect, it's the same guy behind the mask. So RMoody apparently votes to give him free reign to do whatever he wants again. Why? Because a holier than thou perspective bugs him?

When the money flows easy to these marketing companies, everything appears to be fine. The problems start when money gets tight. That's when the "bad items" start showing up. After all, there's 100% profit on those little gems. And when enabled by a flawed authentication process, greed or the need to stay in business by shady means wins every time.

So really, it's all up to the collector to make sure he's comfortable with his purchase. If we all don't demand accountability for the authenticity of items sold into the hobby, then bad ones will continue to end up in collections and riddle the secondary market.

Chris

[RMoody]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

Chris,

The trust is in the agent buying and selling the items period. Your assessment that unless it's "wet ink" is flat out not realistic.

So as people have asked, what about PSAs printed signatures, or NFL Auctions? Should a cert with NO signature be of any less "damage" to the community as one with?

As Twinlakes said...who is to blame for my Culpepper jersey? Scott for selling it game used when it's not, or Dante writing game used on it knowing damn well he didn't play it? Would Culpeppers signature out the COA really changed any of this? Is Culpepper the bad guy for being forgetful about what he worn in a game, or was he purposely misleading Scott. Worse yet....did Scott knowingly have Dante sign this so he could screw me out of.....wait for it......a kings ransom of $175!

Should all that be forgiven when the Rudi cleats I wanted were listed as game worn, but when I called they said they were only game issued. Should I have slammed the phone down and vowed to never deal with them again! Or accept the apology for the error, thank for the discount and be glad they were up front?

At the end of the day, I see a lot of people talking about issues, but listen I've had one....and I'm telling you I don't care.

Because that's what matters.....what the buyer and collector thinks. If you hanging absolute junk in your house is ok with a "wet ink" COA, then so be it. If you think I'm getting suckered left and right not "demanding" a player COA the oh well.

[RMoody]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

Just to put some photos to the story, here are 4 of the 11 Woodson COAs I have, also here are the Culpepper printed LOAs and the jersey he did not wear in a game but inscribed anyway.


Here is the jersey,



Just ordered more yesterday as well.

[MikeKam]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

You are wrong
While there are printed signatures of all the staff members at the bottom of the letter, each letter is personally signed by the authenticator who personally inspected the item.

Never bothered comparing PSA letters haha. I assumed they were printed like the ones on the bottom and for the fact that I sometimes see the sticker on the actual signature which made me think they were just printed off and sticker'd.

[tella27]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

Its understandable if a player doesn't sign 200 COAs BUT with that said I don't think its right that these two companies talked about write up a letter like it was wrote by the player with "I, JC Romero, hereby verify.." And then have a line at the bottom with his name printed below it and a facsimile signature. It is purely made to make the purchaser think the letter that authenticates that item is from the player. The companies could just as easily make a coa stating from their company that its authentic but they know the COAs fool buyers into thinking the player wrote that out. If they aren't going to ask the players to sign the coa take a picture of them signing each item.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

And speaking of MLB holograms. How many here have had to contact MLB to get an item corrected. I have. I have a ball that they credited to one hitter when it was actually another hitter. I contacted MLB and they corrected it after I proved it to them.

Roady, I'm sincere in this question: How did you manage to prove the ball was hit by one player and not the other? I could see being able to prove it wasn't a hit by a player (if they had no hits that game), but I can't see how/why MLB would take your word on it being hit by another player.

Aside from that, I think it's ridiculous that individuals are comparing "CelebzDirect" & "Hollywood Investments" (hgpdiamond) putting a hologram on an item to MLB/NFL(PSA)/NHL(MeiGray)/NBA(Meigray)/MLS/pro-teams authenticating items. In one case, we have items being sourced by a company (CD) alleged to be run by Scott J Monette, who has a history in the hobby of selling items later found to not be what they were claimed at sale (Palmeiro 500th HR stuff was the most publicized, if I recall), and sold by that same company or the secondary (hgp) company. In the other case, we have items being purchased from organizations traditionally considered to be primary (or at least 1B) provenance.

Part of the problem with CD is the items sourced from a party claimed to be game used by a second party. Most of the "game used" bats sold by CD fall into this category. Consignor ("Party") states that they were given bats by various players through the years. This really just establishes that the items are signed player bats. However, at some point, CD rep gets Party to agree that the items are game used. If Party signs a document attesting to this, then they would be responsible (maybe not necessarily liable) for selling the item as game used. If Party signs a bunch of blank documents (and this can be proven), Party might be liable for damages, but the rep manufacturing statements after the fact would be liable for the statements, as well.

Now, if Party signs a single document, and rep photocopies the document to distribute with multiple items, that's forgery of documentation. If Party agrees in advance of rep doing this, it is no longer forgery, since it's done with consent. In this case, it would seem rep would be liable for damages, and Party may be liable to the rep. If rep creates their own generic COA attesting to an item being sold, they would be liable for fraud.

Now, how does this all go back to CD? Well, Monette has a history of starting businesses with working relationships to market directly from athletes. His model then evolves to secondary acquisition from collections, as athletes start to price their items higher at source. At some point thereafter, items from his company are deemed questionable, and the company shuts down. A couple years later, Scot creates a new company and starts marketing directly from athletes once again. Steps repeat. It's been alleged on several occasions that Scot either owns or owned CD at some point. He may no longer run the company directly, but his companies have a history of problems.

ASI - Bradley Wells ends up in prison for fraudulently selling retail items as game used memorabilia to trading card companies. Monette, Well's partner isn't in jail. No public announcements have been made of Monette being interviewed by the FBI. CD uses this as a basis of defense for claiming Monette is innocent and a victim of circumstance.

Elite Sports Marketing, Inc (Oldsmar, FL) - Multiple complaints about items not being received or sold to someone else for a higher price after sale has been paid for. Charging cards without delivery. Oh, and something called parkviewauctions selling their stuff on eBay. Near the end, ESM was accused of misrepresenting store model bats as player model by engraving the player name into Big Stick bats. This actually ended up being a common practice by sellers, so I suppose ESM can be thanked for that "innovation."

CD - Multiple accusations of bid shilling, admission of cancelling eBay listings due to being offered a buyout price, and some accusations of non-gamers being sold as game used. HGP selling CD items on eBay.

It might seem like a witch-hunt to see that CD is held under much scrutiny, but the scrutiny has been earned through actions over a period of time. There are just too many parallels to the early part of other Monette ventures to simply dismiss any nefarious details as coincidental or unintended.

[onlyalbert]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

The business models practiced by Steve with Hollywood Investments and Scot with CelebzDirect are very different. I also believe the character of these 2 individuals is very different, but I am not here to debate character, but to look at business models. I have been fortunate to meet Scot in person on several occasions and had discussions with him about his business model and some of his challenges.

Scot purchases player collections. He has the balls to put a stack of money in his pocket and go meet a ballplayer that he might just not know at a location that he might not be familiar with. He might have an hour or two to view, inventory, appraise and purchase hundreds of items. During this time, you have no idea what the behavior/character of this player is like - is he going through a divorce, is he going bankrupt, is he just trying to get rid of junk, is he nice, is he a complete d!ck, is he a liar, is he an idiot, is he a fraud, is he a stand-up guy, is he a motivational speaker, or is he a father figure. Baseball players are people too, and all people are not good ones. So during this 1-2 hour meeting, who is writing up the LOA's for the player to sign? How long would it even take to write up 100 LOA's? Then what happens when the player signs 5 of them and says that he is done signing them? Do you walk away from the collection and tell him no thanks? There will be CelebzDirect LOA's with photocopied signatures; it is just not feasible to generate that many original LOA's in that short of a time frame. So why not just have the player sign 100 blank LOA’s and fill them out later? I am sure that has happened as well, but it sounds like a catch-22, because he will get roasted here for doing either of the above. I have personally dealt with several individuals who have purchased player collections and had issues with those player’s and getting LOA’s. At least Scot doesn’t misrepresent the fact it is a copy and is forthcoming about it.

So then what happens when Scot starts selling the items and finds out from one of us (probably posted in this forum) that the player(s) were either lying to him, misremembered, misrepresented, or didn’t really care? Who takes the heat for that? Who is the fraud then, your hero or Scot? How do you look your hero in the face and tell him he his is a liar, in his own trophy room? The numbers are not in Scot's favor as he buys in bulk. There will inevitably be bad stuff, there just will. But guess who will refund your money when something with your item isn't right? Scot.

Scot’s business is very valuable to us in this community; he goes out and finds collections that each and every one of us have an interest in. He is an asset.

Trying to steer back on topic, I have never liked the idea of LOA's, especially when adding the words "auction house" along with it, but I will save that rant for another thread on another day. To many people rely on a worthless piece of paper rather than conducting their own Due Diligence.

-Wes

Wes, you hit the nail on the head here. It would never be possible or feasible to have a printed coa hand signed by the player for each item obtained when there are literally hundreds of items in some instances and maybe a couple hours at best to complete a deal. They may be better off changing the wording on their coas and make them come from CD attesting to the item and signed by the agent obtaining the item. I've had many dealings with CD and not one issue with anything I've bought. I've bought game used and a few issued items. They all arrived as described. I've even bought items site unseen.

Now let's talk about PSA letters. They may be signed with wet ink, but I have seen many many dozens of PSA papers on Pujols bats over the years and if you put 10 of them side by side dated 2010 and later you would almost get the feel that there is a template that exists for Pujols papers. Some are almost identical in the wording. So what is the difference between a photocopy and template where a few words are changed? Anyone else notice this?

[beachpetrol]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

Here's an interesting thread from a little over a year ago about Celebz:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=56307

None of this would have happened, if the OP had done his/her homework. Its been said on this website and others, time and time again, DO YOUR F*&%ING HOMEWORK!!

[Roady]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

Roady, I'm sincere in this question: How did you manage to prove the ball was hit by one player and not the other? I could see being able to prove it wasn't a hit by a player (if they had no hits that game), but I can't see how/why MLB would take your word on it being hit by another player.

The play by play of the game and the balls that were authenticated before and after mine.

[Roady]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

I provide proof of the play by play of the game.

Note the 2nd inning...

Roberto Hernandez pitching for Philadelphia
E Gattis grounded out to third.
D Uggla grounded out to shortstop.
A Simmons tripled to deep center.
R Pena walked.
E Santana grounded out to pitcher.

I also provided the authentication numbers of the balls before and after my ball.
My ball was listed as a triple by Gattis when in fact I proved it was a triple by Simmons.
It is important to note the lineup of the game,
5th Gattis
6th Uggla
7th Simmons
8th Pena
9th Santana

My ball is EK705499 BATTER - ANDRELTON SIMMONS, PITCHER - ROBERTO HERNANDEZ, TOP OF 2, TRIPLE
It did say Gattis was the batter when I bought it.

The ball before it is EK705498 BATTER - ANDRELTON SIMMONS, PITCHER - ROBERTO HERNANDEZ, TOP OF 2, FOUL TIP

The ball before that is EK705497 BATTER - ANDRELTON SIMMONS, PITCHER - ROBERTO HERNANDEZ, TOP OF 2, PITCH IN THE DIRT

The ball before that is EK705496 BATTER - ANDRELTON SIMMONS, PITCHER - ROBERTO HERNANDEZ, TOP OF 2, PITCH IN THE DIRT

The ball before that is EK705495 BATTER - EVAN GATTIS, PITCHER - ROBERTO HERNANDEZ, TOP OF 2, GROUND OUT

And the ball right after mine is EK705500 BATTER - MARLON BYRD, PITCHER - ERVIN SANTANA, BOTTOM OF 2, PITCH IN THE DIRT

So....
Gattis never hit a triple in the game, and certainly not in the 2nd inning.
The 2 balls before mine were both attributed to Simmons
The 3rd ball before mine was Gattis who grounded out
So there was no way it was Gattis who hit the triple it had to be Simmons which agrees with the play by play of the game.

[Roady]

Re: Celebz Direct & Hgpdiamond Questionable business practices

Should have said....
The 3 balls before mine were both attributed to Simmons
The 4th ball before mine was Gattis who grounded out