Biggest HOF Snub

[Neely8]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

I think it is ludicrous that Pete Rose is not in the HOF when we have juice heads breaking records who will probably get in. At least everything he did on the field was legit.

[nomarmauerfan]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

I think it gets too confusing to look at overall stats. Then, its easy to ask why so and so is in, and why so and so isn't (if Puckett's in, why not Mattingly, Fisk, why not Simmons). I think a better way to look at it is who were the top players of the decade. Who are the best position players of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's? And, are they in. If they're on that list, then they were the best player at their position for a 10-year period. To me, that warrants the HOF. We can certainly have some great discussions on guys that comprise the All-Decade teams.

Mike

[suave1477]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

Jeff I found these numbers very interesting and as a Posada fan I looked at his numbers and compared them to the players you have listed and it seems Posada comes in the middle of the players lists in just about every category. It makes me wonder if he will get in the hof????
One thing that does work in his favor is he is still playing so it gives him sometime to put up some more numbers to pass some players on these lists. Plus he has 4 rings and a 4 x all star hope those help.

Don't know if I'd call it the biggest snub, but Ted Simmons' lack of support is a major head scratcher. When you look at his numbers compared to catchers who already are in the HOF, it's hard to believe he didn't get enough votes to even remain on the ballot. Simmons ranks in the top 5 among catchers in 15 categories and in the top 10 in 17 categories. He excelled in reaching base, driving in runs and getting extra base hits... he was a switch hitter... and while he wasn't in Bench's class defensively, his fielding percentage of .987 was comparable to Fisk, Dickey and Campanella and better than the MLB average during Simmons' career. It'll be interesting to see what the veteran's committee does with Simmons. I wonder if anyone who didn't pull 5% of the writer's vote ever got elected by the vets?

Here's a good article that makes Ted's case: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...61/ai_88575158

HOW TED SIMMONS RATES WITH HALL OF FAME CATCHERS

RUNS

Carlton Fisk 1,276
Yogi Berra 1,175
Buck Ewing 1,118
Johnny Bench 1,091
Ted Simmons 1,074
Mickey Cochrane 1,041
Bill Dickey 930
Gabby Hartnett 867
Rick Ferrell 687
Roger Bresnahan 684
Roy Campanella 627
Ernie Lombardi 601
Ray Schalk 579

HITS

Ted Simmons 2,472
Carlton Fisk 2,356
Yogi Berra 2,150
Johnny Bench 2,048
Bill Dickey 1,969
Gabby Hartnett 1,912
Ernie Lombardi 1,792
Rick Ferrell 1,692
Buck Ewing 1,663
Mickey Cochrane 1,652
Ray Schalk 1,345
Roger Bresnahan 1,251
Roy Campanella 1,161

DOUBLES

Ted Simmons 483
Carlton Fisk 421
Gabby Hartnett 396
Johnny Bench 381
Bill Dickey 343
Mickey Cochrane 333
Rick Ferrell 324
Yogi Berra 321
Ernie Lombardi 277
Buck Ewing 237
Roger Bresnahan 222
Ray Schalk 199
Roy Companella 178

HOME RUNS

Johnny Bench 389
Carlton Fisk 376
Yogi Berra 358
Ted Simmons 248
Roy Campanella 242
Gabby Hartnett 236
Bill Dickey 202
Ernie Lombardi 190
Mickey Cochrane 119
Buck Ewing 66
Rick Ferrell 28
Roger Bresnahan 26
Ray Schalk 12

RBI

Yogi Berra 1,430
Ted Simmons 1,389
Carlton Fisk 1,386
Johnny Bench 1,376
Bill Dickey 1,209
Gabby Hartnett 1,179
Ernie Lombardi 990
Buck Ewing 883
Roy Campanella 856
Mickey Cochrane 832
Rick Ferrell 734
Ray Schalk 596
Roger Bresnahan 531

BATTING AVERAGE

Mickey Cochrane .320
Bill Dickey .313
Ernie Lombardi .306
Buck Ewing .303
Gabby Hartnett .297
Ted Simmons .285
Yogi Berra .285
Rick Ferrell .281
Roger Bresnahan .279
Roy Campanella .276
Carlton Fisk .269
Johnny Bench .267
Ray Schalk .253

GAMES CAUGHT

Carlton Fisk 2,226
Rick Ferrell 1,806
Gabby Hartnett 1,793
Ted Simmons 1,771
Johnny Bench 1,742
Ray Schalk 1,727
Bill Dickey 1,708
Yogi Berra 1,699
Ernie Lombardi 1,544
Mickey Cochrane 1,451
Roy Campanella 1,183
Roger Bresnahan 974
Buck Ewing 636

FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHER

Listed are each catcher's career
fielding average (FA) as a catcher
and the average fielding percentage
for catchers during his
career--League Fielding Percentage
(LPCT)

Catcher FA LPCT

Johnny Bench .990 .987
Yogi Berra .989 .987
Bill Dickey .988 .982
Roy Campanella .988 .984
Carlton Fisk .988 .986
Ted Simmons .987 .986
Mickey Cochrane .985 .980
Rick Ferrell .984 .982
Gabby Hartnett .984 .978
Ray Schalk .981 .971
Ernie Lombardi .979 .980
Roger Bresnahan .971 .968
Buck Ewing .931 .906

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

Suave,

I'm a big Posada fan too and at age 37, he just had his best season to date. Like you, I inserted him in the list to see where he falls. Pretty neat stuff!


Jim


RUNS

Carlton Fisk 1,276
Yogi Berra 1,175
Buck Ewing 1,118
Johnny Bench 1,091
Ted Simmons 1,074
Mickey Cochrane 1,041
Bill Dickey 930
Gabby Hartnett 867
POSADA 744
Rick Ferrell 687
Roger Bresnahan 684
Roy Campanella 627
Ernie Lombardi 601
Ray Schalk 579

HITS

Ted Simmons 2,472
Carlton Fisk 2,356
Yogi Berra 2,150
Johnny Bench 2,048
Bill Dickey 1,969
Gabby Hartnett 1,912
Ernie Lombardi 1,792
Rick Ferrell 1,692
Buck Ewing 1,663
Mickey Cochrane 1,652
Ray Schalk 1,345
POSADA 1334
Roger Bresnahan 1,251
Roy Campanella 1,161

DOUBLES

Ted Simmons 483
Carlton Fisk 421
Gabby Hartnett 396
Johnny Bench 381
Bill Dickey 343
Mickey Cochrane 333
Rick Ferrell 324
Yogi Berra 321
POSADA 304
Ernie Lombardi 277
Buck Ewing 237
Roger Bresnahan 222
Ray Schalk 199
Roy Companella 178

HOME RUNS

Johnny Bench 389
Carlton Fisk 376
Yogi Berra 358
Ted Simmons 248
Roy Campanella 242
Gabby Hartnett 236
POSADA 218
Bill Dickey 202
Ernie Lombardi 190
Mickey Cochrane 119
Buck Ewing 66
Rick Ferrell 28
Roger Bresnahan 26
Ray Schalk 12

RBI

Yogi Berra 1,430
Ted Simmons 1,389
Carlton Fisk 1,386
Johnny Bench 1,376
Bill Dickey 1,209
Gabby Hartnett 1,179
Ernie Lombardi 990
Buck Ewing 883
POSADA 861
Roy Campanella 856
Mickey Cochrane 832
Rick Ferrell 734
Ray Schalk 596
Roger Bresnahan 531

BATTING AVERAGE

Mickey Cochrane .320
Bill Dickey .313
Ernie Lombardi .306
Buck Ewing .303
Gabby Hartnett .297
Ted Simmons .285
Yogi Berra .285
Rick Ferrell .281
Roger Bresnahan .279
POSADA 277
Roy Campanella .276
Carlton Fisk .269
Johnny Bench .267
Ray Schalk .253

GAMES CAUGHT

Carlton Fisk 2,226
Rick Ferrell 1,806
Gabby Hartnett 1,793
Ted Simmons 1,771
Johnny Bench 1,742
Ray Schalk 1,727
Bill Dickey 1,708
Yogi Berra 1,699
Ernie Lombardi 1,544
Mickey Cochrane 1,451
POSADA 1,360
Roy Campanella 1,183
Roger Bresnahan 974
Buck Ewing 636

FIELDING AVG. AS CATCHER

Listed are each catcher's career
fielding average (FA) as a catcher
and the average fielding percentage
for catchers during his
career--League Fielding Percentage
(LPCT)

Catcher FA LPCT

POSADA .992 / LPCT ?
Johnny Bench .990 .987
Yogi Berra .989 .987
Bill Dickey .988 .982
Roy Campanella .988 .984
Carlton Fisk .988 .986
Ted Simmons .987 .986
Mickey Cochrane .985 .980
Rick Ferrell .984 .982
Gabby Hartnett .984 .978
Ray Schalk .981 .971
Ernie Lombardi .979 .980
Roger Bresnahan .971 .968
Buck Ewing .931 .906

[suave1477]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

Vintage even though he had his best season, he can still add a bit more within 3 years to creep a couple of spots on some of those lists.

[gingi79]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

I think we all have a favorite who belongs in the Hall but won't get in. For me, it's Dale Murphy.

Look at his career stats and it's a no brainer. He Does NOT have the numbers to qualify. But if all we are using is pure stats than the HOF will soon become the "Hall of very Good Players who Hung on too long to get to 3000 hits or 500 Hrs."

I know I will get flamed for this but Biggio is NOT a HOF player. He wasn't the best player at his position any year he played (He had 3 different positions too if I'm not mistaken) No pitcher ever worried about pitching to him. He wasn't feared in the field or at bat. I like Biggio, but he was a good player, not a HOF player.

He'll make the Hall though, because he is a stat compiler. He was gifted with talent and lucky enough that his genes were good enough to play at the top level for years without major injury. He wasn't ever up for MVP or in the top 10 in HRs, RBIs, etc. In short, he is ONLY making the HOF because people like him and he played long enough to get 3000 hits.

Murph was arguably the BEST player in the Major Leagues for 5 years. He won Back to Back NL MVP's playing for a terrible Braves team. He was feared as a hitter and as a fielder. He just doesn't have the numbers because he wasn't able to sustain his great seasons for 3 more years and he stopped playing 5 years before he would have compiled the stats to look better for the ballot.

Those old timers will understand why I say Murph belongs in under the same reasons that Sandy Koufax belongs in. Koufax was awful for the first 5 seasons of his career but then had 5 seasons of being the best pitcher in baseball. 5 great seasons got him in. Transpose that type of thinking to a non-steroid era hitter and Murph should be in.

Oh and Jim Rice is not in the HOF because he was an a-hole as a player , especially to the sportswriters and enough of them are still on the voting committee to keep him out. He was an amazing hitter for years but being obnoxious won't endear you to the people resonsible for letting you into the HOF.

[ahuff]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

gingi79,

I believe you might be mistaken. If you take a look at this site, you will see that Biggio was the best at his position for several years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml

It indicates he was a 7 time all star, won 4 gold gloves, 5 silver slugger awards (at both C and 2B), and still compiled over 3,000 hits. His batting average did dip at the end of his career, but his doubles and homers seemed to maintain a steady pace.

[loumud]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

gingi79,

I believe you might be mistaken. If you take a look at this site, you will see that Biggio was the best at his position for several years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/biggicr01.shtml

It indicates he was a 7 time all star, won 4 gold gloves, 5 silver slugger awards (at both C and 2B), and still compiled over 3,000 hits. His batting average did dip at the end of his career, but his doubles and homers seemed to maintain a steady pace.

To resurrect an old thread, I also think Biggio epitomizes how everyone thinks players in baseball should be, and represents the romantic notion of the way the game used to be played in the good 'ole days. He stuck with one team through thick and thin instead of chasing dollars with other teams, switched positions several times to make room for other players the team needed (and didn't complain about it in public on Sportscenter), and he kept himself in great shape enough to stay healthy for all those 19 years! I think his stamina and hard work on and off the field speak volumes on the type of person he is. Plus, he has key numbers to back his inevitable entrance into the Hall. If there was ever a player to look up to in the history of the game, it is Craig Biggio! For that reason alone, he deserves to make it!

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

How about Curt Flood?

-He was a three-time All-Star
-seven-time Gold Glove winner;
-hit over .300 six times in 15 years

And when he challenged the "reserve clause" in baseball, he was probably the premier centerfielder in baseball at that time. He ultimately and forever changed the game of baseball.

Jim

[earlywynnfan]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

How about Curt Flood?

Yes!!!!


Here's my thought for the HOF, and I'm ready for all sorts of abuse:

NO MORE YANKEES!!!!

I don't know if I'm the only one, but I sure get sick and tired of New York being the center of the universe. To all of you who live there, guess what: there's a whole country out there! Go experience it.

But no, the rest of us have to put up with Catfish and Gomez and other marginal HOFers. Seriously, would anyone be crying about Mattingly not being in the HOF if he was a Royal or an Angel? Joe D. the greatest of all time? PLEASE!!


And Red Sox Nation, the rest of us are getting a little tired of you, too!

Ken

(Well, Jeter does seem like a class act and a true star, so we'll let him in.)

[Swoboda4]

Re: Biggest HOF Snub

by far RIGGS STEPHENSON
lifetime batting average(14 seasons):.336

http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stephri01.shtml