Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

[Yankwood]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

I'm with yankwood. How can you justify steroid use in baseball on the premise that it is not stated in the mlb handbook that you are not allowed to use them? Since when did MLB become its own country with its own constitution? i believe the laws that govern this country apply to mlb as well

Exactly, those who make the argument about it not being against baseball rules-well-that is an awfully weak argument. If it's against the law, why should baseball have to second that? I just don't understand the argument other than to make excuses for the players who were breaking the law--------and thereby DOING WRONG-baseball rule or not! ! ! But you know what, we can go on like this forever. The fact remains that these records of recent years are very, very tarnished in the public's eye and rightfully always will be.

[trsent]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

Point Blank:

Baseball turned their back on any use or abuse for years. Just as they have ignored use of other drugs, they ignored the use of this drug. So it made a guy hit more home runs? It brought fans back when baseball was catching down to hockey in popularity.

It is illegal to smoke marijuana, but it still takes place all over this country and people don't have asterisks next to their names because of it. A drug is a drug, you cannot tell me if someone uses cocaine they can go to rehab and be forgiven but if they take a performance enhancement drug then they have an asterisk next to their stats?

Baseball didn't mind, they needed the sport to pick back up. Too little, too late in my book.

You can be a purist all you want, stats are stats in my book and they will remain that way because baseball (Bud) let it happen for so long.

[Yankwood]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

Point Blank:

Baseball turned their back on any use or abuse for years. Just as they have ignored use of other drugs, they ignored the use of this drug. So it made a guy hit more home runs? It brought fans back when baseball was catching down to hockey in popularity.

It is illegal to smoke marijuana, but it still takes place all over this country and people don't have asterisks next to their names because of it. A drug is a drug, you cannot tell me if someone uses cocaine they can go to rehab and be forgiven but if they take a performance enhancement drug then they have an asterisk next to their stats?

Baseball didn't mind, they needed the sport to pick back up. Too little, too late in my book.

You can be a purist all you want, stats are stats in my book and they will remain that way because baseball (Bud) let it happen for so long.

Marijuana use never aided anyone in hitting homeruns so the comparison to steroid use is very weak. Apples and oranges.

[trsent]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

Sorry, you are picking out drugs and saying that some illegal drugs in the USA are ok because it may not help performance, while others may help performance so we should destroy all your records.

No good, a drug is a drug in this case. It is common sense. How do you not know that Fergie Jenkins didn't throw faster because he was stoned the night before?

The continual argument that if the laws of the land make it illegal so therefore...Fine, then suspend every player who has used any illegal drug - No just one that may make your body stronger.

THEY ARE ALL ILLEGAL DRUGS - RIGHT?

Funny thing is Steroids were not illegal in baseball rules, but cocaine was during this era.

[byergo]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

Steriods are a major performance enhancer. Other drugs: weed, coke, alcohol, etc... degrade, not enhance your performance. The difference is crystal clear.

[Yankwood]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

Steriods are a major performance enhancer. Other drugs: weed, coke, alcohol, etc... degrade, not enhance your performance. The difference is crystal clear.

We can all see this plain as day. But you're wasting your time. He won't listen.

[trsent]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

I don't care if they enhance your performance.

Baseball had a rule that if you got caught snorting cocaine, you were suspended.

They didn't have a rule that if you used steroids you were in any trouble with them at all.

All I am saying is 1. They didn't break the rules of baseball and 2. Don't tell me because they used a drug that made them stronger that they should be hung on a cross.

Drugs are drugs, you don't know if smoking pot maybe makes your eyesight better so you see the pitch coming clearer. People smoke week for eye issues, right?

When Keith Hernandez hit .390 - He said he was on cocaine and the baseball looked like a beach ball coming to the plate.

Get over you obsessions, drugs are drugs and no one will have any permanent record altering because of the use of steroids - Except in your heart. (By the way, this is fine to have your own personal record holders in your heart.)

In the heart of Tim McGraw's late father:

Ten million years from now, when the sun burns out and the Earth is just a frozen ice ball hurtling through space, nobody's going to care whether or not you consider Roger Maris or Barry Bonds the all-time single season home run champion.

Then again, who has proved that Barry Bonds abused steroids? It is still all "allegations".

[Fraudfinder!!]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

Then again, who has proved that Barry Bonds abused steroids? It is still all "allegations".
__________________
Joel Alpert



OK Joel is right. He has been on record saying if someone is not convicted etc. then they must be presumed innocent. "Innocent until proven guilty". The following people were never "convicted" in a court of law therefore my opinion of them must have been wrong all these years and I apologize to Joel for having these terrible opinions. My head is out of the sand! I am free! Shame on me! I repent!

1. Adolf Hilter never commited genocide. He died prior to his trial.
2. George Wallace was never a racist.
3. JFK was never a womenizer
4. John Belushi was not a druggie. After all, someone could have snuck in while he slept and injected him with all those drugs that caused his death.
5. MLK never cheated on his wife, (only had FBI wiretaps,) he was never prosecuted for Adultery,thus it never happened.
6. 9/11 hijackers should be termed as "alledged hijackers." No one knows for sure what happened on those planes. Pure conjecture.
7. O.J Simpson never killed his ex-wife or Ron Goldman. Err, wait he was acquitted wasn't he!! (Although a civil jury later determined that he killed both these people, good enough for me).

I could go on and on, how about getting back to some great game used discussions......

[allstarsplus]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

1991 MLB memo. MLB stated that steroids are against the rules (page 2) but as you read on that they weren't included in the drug testing program.

Great reading if you haven't seen this before.

Get those astericks out!

[sylbry]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

Then again, who has proved that Barry Bonds abused steroids? It is still all "allegations".
__________________
Joel Alpert



OK Joel is right. He has been on record saying if someone is not convicted etc. then they must be presumed innocent. "Innocent until proven guilty". The following people were never "convicted" in a court of law therefore my opinion of them must have been wrong all these years and I apologize to Joel for having these terrible opinions. My head is out of the sand! I am free! Shame on me! I repent!

1. Adolf Hilter never commited genocide. He died prior to his trial.
2. George Wallace was never a racist.
3. JFK was never a womenizer
4. John Belushi was not a druggie. After all, someone could have snuck in while he slept and injected him with all those drugs that caused his death.
5. MLK never cheated on his wife, (only had FBI wiretaps,) he was never prosecuted for Adultery,thus it never happened.
6. 9/11 hijackers should be termed as "alledged hijackers." No one knows for sure what happened on those planes. Pure conjecture.
7. O.J Simpson never killed his ex-wife or Ron Goldman. Err, wait he was acquitted wasn't he!! (Although a civil jury later determined that he killed both these people, good enough for me).

I could go on and on, how about getting back to some great game used discussions......

Well said!

[sylbry]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick...emo=1991&num=1

1991 MLB memo. MLB stated that steroids are against the rules (page 2) but as you read on that they weren't included in the drug testing program.

Great reading if you haven't seen this before.

Get those astericks out!

If it wasn't against the rules then why did they sneak around to do their PEDs? Why did they have to buy them from shady people? Afterall, if it was ok and accepted then you should be able to buy and use your drugs out in the open. The answer is they knew it was wrong and didn't want to get caught.

Also, if it wasn't wrong then why are players being so defensive about steriod use pre 2003? Couldn't they just say "Bud said it was ok." Afterall, Bud isn't going to punish them. Because if he did he would have to admit he was a failure and that won't happen anytime soon.

[trsent]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

My head is out of the sand! I am free! Shame on me! I repent!

1. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
2. George Wallace was never a racist.
3. JFK was never a womenizer
4. John Belushi was not a druggie. After all, someone could have snuck in while he slept and injected him with all those drugs that caused his death.
5. MLK never cheated on his wife, (only had FBI wiretaps,) he was never prosecuted for Adultery,thus it never happened.
6. 9/11 hijackers should be termed as "alledged hijackers." No one knows for sure what happened on those planes. Pure conjecture.
7. O.J Simpson never killed his ex-wife or Ron Goldman. Err, wait he was acquitted wasn't he!! (Although a civil jury later determined that he killed both these people, good enough for me).

Sir, you have some balls - Putting Adolf Hitler into a discussion about people abusing steroids. You need serious help. GET A LIFE AND THANKS FOR MAKING A DISCUSSION ABOUT SOMETHING SO SHALLOW THAT YOU HAVE TO REMIND ME OF HISTORY OF KILLING MILLIONS OF INNOCENTS, MANY JEWISH, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO MAKE A POINT THAT YOUR PASTIME WAS ABUSED BY A DRUG.

I had respect for your work on this forum until that comment.

You should be ashamed of yourself for that comparison and I would like to ask the moderator to please remove that comment and anywhere it is copied because it is out of line that you have put this forum into a class of comparing someone who injects drugs into their own body and someone who never stood trial for the murder of millions of presumably innocent civilians because of their beliefs and then allegedly committed suicide before being found to stand trial.

Then again, you have the proof that the alleged baseball players took steroids because two books have published that they have?

I doubt these players are innocent, but I have stated why I will support them in the past though I do not approve of their abuse due to baseball allowing this abuse until outside pressure caused them to change their rules. Also being a recovering alcoholic (17 years) I understand how drug use is addictive and maybe help should have been offered somewhere along the way.

I have a theory, "Opinions are like ass-holes, everyone is one". I have mine, you have yours, we can debate until you make a comparison that makes this whole forum go down in taste.

[trsent]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

7. O.J Simpson never killed his ex-wife or Ron Goldman. Err, wait he was acquitted wasn't he!! (Although a civil jury later determined that he killed both these people, good enough for me).

I did have to separately comment on this one.

My attorney believed from day one that OJ was innocent. I don't know if he is or not. I have my own life to worry about, but I do find some things interesting in this discussion.

First, it is believed by many that the police planted evidence hoping to slam-dunk their case. If this was true (yes, purely allegations) then prosecutors took a winning case, created doubt and got a guilty man off a double-murder charge.

Now, a jury of our peers in criminal court found the man "not guilty" and that is what we have to live with for the rest of time. I hope he didn't do it because it is sad that if he did a man who should be in jail for life is golfing.

As for civil court, the rules of civil court say they need a burden of proof, meaning they need to feel more guilty than innocent feelings. Our criminal court you are to have no doubt. In other words, civil court basically states you may be guilty but we felt you were more guilty than innocent.

You can personally live by your own convictions, but here in The US and A we have a set of laws that we choose to agree with so that we can have a free country. I am glad you are not setting the rules with your views on the situation we have discussed about a man who criminal court found not guilty.

[Fraudfinder!!]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

Then again, you have the proof that the alleged baseball players took steroids because two books have published that they have?


Joel, Please show me where I ever said anything about any player taking steriods. I have NEVER made any such comment.

I apoligize if I offended you about my comment about Hxxxxx. I stand by my comparision however. I just showed how ridiculous I find your stance on this whole innocent untill proven guilty. You certainly have an opinion of what that man did even though he never stood trial. You can't pick and choose Joel. I was merely making a point. I do not need "help" and have a great life, thanks. I thank God people with your mindset are not running things in this great country.

"As for civil court, the rules of civil court say they need a burden of proof, meaning they need to feel more guilty than innocent feelings. Our criminal court you are to have no doubt. In other words, civil court basically states you may be guilty but we felt you were more guilty than innocent."

Oh really Joel. Where did you get your law degree? "No doubt" in criminal cases? Simply not true Joel. Have you ever heard the term reasonable doubt?

"My attorney believed from day one that OJ was innocent"

Joel, time for a new attorney!

Joel if I am ever in Vegas I would love to hook up with you and see your collection. I think you would even like me. No hard feelings.

[trsent]

Re: Steroids, Collectors Blacklist

Funny, I am the guy at the poker table that everyone loves. I am entertaining and people generally enjoy my antics. Now, the problem is I am relocating to Chicago next week so Las Vegas will not be my home anymore.

I will be back here a few times a year, but I need to sleep again.

Oh yeah, I still disagree with you. I don't know who used drugs and I do not compare drugs, but I know even baseball's investigations uses the term "allegations" because they know nothing has been proved. On this forum we are going to blacklist players based on allegations only and compare possible innocence of Barry Bonds to possible innocence of Adolph Hitler? That is insane.