Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

[Mr.3000]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Great thing about opinions, we're all entitled.


I stand by my opinion that cheating is cheating...no matter how you slice it. I don't see "levels" of cheating. I see it as one big ball of ...cheating. It ruins the integrity of the game all the same.

Whitey's vaseline surely affected his numbers. Niekro's emery board surely affected his, Sammy's corked bat surely affected his (not to mention his possible steroid use).....just as A-rods (and others) steroid use affected theirs.

To try and seperate cheating into many or multiple "levels"...is to merely look to nitpick and pit todays cheaters against yesterdays cheaters. Sorry, I don't and won't play that game.

Again....cheating is cheating. It's all one and the same.

The game has had it's dark moments and has survived. It will survive this. Ruth was an alcoholic womanizer, Cobb was an abusive racist, there was the 1919 Blacksox scandal, the strike of '94....and so many more before, inbetween and after. I am sure this won't be the last dark moment in our sport.


It's time for a new commissioner, a stronger drug policy that is actually enforced and stiffer penalties for those that break baseball rules....no matter the rule, no matter the player.

[reed1216]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I agree that cheating is cheating. I also believe a felony is a felony. However, 1st degree murder is a more severe felony than possession of drug paraphernalia. Likewise, abusing illegal performance enhancing drugs is a more severe form of cheating than corking a bat.

If you neglect to accept this principle, prisons would be filled with inmates serving life sentences for possession of drug paraphernalia.

Just my two cents, although I respect all of the opinions expressed here.

http://community.webshots.com/user/Reed97

[Mr.3000]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

I agree that cheating is cheating. I also believe a felony is a felony. However, 1st degree murder is a more severe felony than possession of drug paraphernalia. Likewise, abusing illegal performance enhancing drugs is a more severe form of cheating than corking a bat.

If you neglect to accept this principle, prisons would be filled with inmates serving life sentences for possession of drug paraphernalia.

Just my two cents, although I respect all of the opinions expressed here.

http://community.webshots.com/user/Reed97

LOL I knew it was coming...the old "Murder is not the same as.." argument.


I can argue that "cheating" and "felonies" are apples and oranges and we can dance this dance all night. Mail fraud is different from online fraud and carried different penalties. It's still fraud. Strong armed robbery is more severe than armed robbery which is more severe than B&E and carries a varying penalty. It's still armed robbery.

I am not diving into semantics here.

Cheating is cheating. Baseball has always had and more than likely will always have cheaters....one form or another.

[reed1216]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

Cheating is cheating. Baseball has always had and more than likely will always have cheaters....one form or another.

I do agree with that!!

[xpress34]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past & Present)

This issue was brought up on another site - Sports Card Forum (SCF) - a while back and a few other issues were 'thrown on the fire' as far as what you consider cheating - or the various levels and such at which it is done.

Quite a few people brought up the distinction that has already been made here between 'doctoring' a ball / bat and 'doctoring' ones own body.

They are definately 'Apples and Oranges' in how they affect the game and it's records.

One of the things that came up (and I thought it was pretty ludicrous) was that Tiger Woods is a cheat at golf because he 'doctored' his body having Lasik - and then admitted that he had never seen the course or the greens as clearly until after he had the Lasik surgery. Is that cheating?

Base on the 'assumption' of few that called that cheating, it begged me to ask the question - does that mean everyone who has ever had Tommy John surgery or the like is a cheater since they may have also had a previously missed bone spur of whatever removed at the same time giving them more flexability?

Or what about Aaron Cook of the Rockies who almost died on the mound due to blood clots caused by a rib pinching a vein. The doctors removed the rib (on his pitching side mind you) and now Cook says his has better flexibility and better mechanics than ever before. Is that cheating? (Note - a few pitchers have actually discussed having that same rib bone removed from their pitching side after Cook in oreder to have better mechanics and such!?!?)

I think the answer to the above questions is NO, it's not cheating. It's a viable (or in Cook's case LIFE Necessary) operation to fix something that's BROKEN.

But Steroids aren't being used to fix something that's BROKEN, they are being used to either SUPERCHARGE an existing Star talent or at the least UPGRADE a mediocre talent to Star talent level.

As far as the comparing 'spitballs', 'cutballs', etc to Steroids use, that's just outrageous... for one thing, the 'art of cheating' or deception used to get a spitball or whatever is something that can be exposed IMMEDIATELY on the diamond and dealt with swiftly (expulsion form the game) on the spot. (i.e. Niekro's famous 'fluttering emory board' or A-Rod's <I'm really not piling on him here> 'girly swat' at Bronson Arroyo in the ALCS in 2004. They were both immediately DETECTABLE and punishment was swift and instantaneous.

STEROIDS were designed (and used) to give an UNDETECTABLE edge to a player w/ no punishment, but all the rewards.

And now players who get caught (for the most part) are trying to play it off - they weren't 'cheating', they were trying to get an 'edge' on the competition...

That said, I'm waiting to see who Tejada is about to 'out' in his plea deal when he goes to court...

All the best -

Chris

[xpress34]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

Sammy's corked bat surely affected his (not to mention his possible steroid use).

I personally think Sammy juiced - Is aw him as rookie in Texas and his body took the same transformation as Bonds - skinny rail kid becomes the Incredible Hulk...

But as far as Sammy's corked bat - and in his defense - MLB scanned over 80 something GU bats of Sosa's in private collections, the HOF, museums, etc and found cork in NONE of them.

While (again) I don't doubt Sammy juiced, I do believe he grabbed the wrong bat that day - an 'exhibition bat' used for BP to put on a show for the early fans...

Just my .02

- Chris

[Fraudfinder!!]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

Great thing about opinions, we're all entitled.


I stand by my opinion that cheating is cheating...no matter how you slice it. I don't see "levels" of cheating. I see it as one big ball of ...cheating. It ruins the integrity of the game all the same.

Whitey's vaseline surely affected his numbers. Niekro's emery board surely affected his, Sammy's corked bat surely affected his (not to mention his possible steroid use).....just as A-rods (and others) steroid use affected theirs.

To try and seperate cheating into many or multiple "levels"...is to merely look to nitpick and pit todays cheaters against yesterdays cheaters. Sorry, I don't and won't play that game.

Again....cheating is cheating. It's all one and the same.

The game has had it's dark moments and has survived. It will survive this. Ruth was an alcoholic womanizer, Cobb was an abusive racist, there was the 1919 Blacksox scandal, the strike of '94....and so many more before, inbetween and after. I am sure this won't be the last dark moment in our sport.


It's time for a new commissioner, a stronger drug policy that is actually enforced and stiffer penalties for those that break baseball rules....no matter the rule, no matter the player.

George Brett??????

[Mr.3000]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

George Brett??????

My personal opinion is that instance...I assume you are talking about the "pine tar HR"....is very subjective. Did he put too much pine tar to cheat...or did he just put too much pine tar. I don't think he cheated. I think he just got crazy with the pine tar. I don't recall there being a similar instance with him before that day or after.

[David]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

19th century HOFer King Kelly would run from first to third if the umpire wasn't paying attention.

[flaco1801]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

brady anderson hit 50 homers... mays would have hit 100

[TNTtoys]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

But as far as Sammy's corked bat - and in his defense - MLB scanned over 80 something GU bats of Sosa's in private collections, the HOF, museums, etc and found cork in NONE of them.

While (again) I don't doubt Sammy juiced, I do believe he grabbed the wrong bat that day - an 'exhibition bat' used for BP to put on a show for the early fans...

Just my .02

- Chris

Chris,

Thank you for adding this. I was about to do the same when I read thru the thread until I saw your comments. I agree with you completely & believe Sosa made an honest mistake here.

Nick

[Rob L]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

Ty Cobb, an incredible A-hole, nearly thrown out of baseball by Landis for throwing/betting on a game with Tris Speaker. Hell of a player though!

[Nathan]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

Hal Chase was first accused of throwing games in 1908. He was involved in baseball for quite a few more years after that as a player and manager in the National League.

With the Giants, he also managed to corrupt Heinie Zimmerman (who, truth be told, apparently just needed a gentle nudge to the dark side).

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

This issue was brought up on another site - Sports Card Forum (SCF) - a while back and a few other issues were 'thrown on the fire' as far as what you consider cheating - or the various levels and such at which it is done.

Quite a few people brought up the distinction that has already been made here between 'doctoring' a ball / bat and 'doctoring' ones own body.

They are definately 'Apples and Oranges' in how they affect the game and it's records.

One of the things that came up (and I thought it was pretty ludicrous) was that Tiger Woods is a cheat at golf because he 'doctored' his body having Lasik - and then admitted that he had never seen the course or the greens as clearly until after he had the Lasik surgery. Is that cheating?

Base on the 'assumption' of few that called that cheating, it begged me to ask the question - does that mean everyone who has ever had Tommy John surgery or the like is a cheater since they may have also had a previously missed bone spur of whatever removed at the same time giving them more flexability?

Or what about Aaron Cook of the Rockies who almost died on the mound due to blood clots caused by a rib pinching a vein. The doctors removed the rib (on his pitching side mind you) and now Cook says his has better flexibility and better mechanics than ever before. Is that cheating? (Note - a few pitchers have actually discussed having that same rib bone removed from their pitching side after Cook in oreder to have better mechanics and such!?!?)

I think the answer to the above questions is NO, it's not cheating. It's a viable (or in Cook's case LIFE Necessary) operation to fix something that's BROKEN.

But Steroids aren't being used to fix something that's BROKEN, they are being used to either SUPERCHARGE an existing Star talent or at the least UPGRADE a mediocre talent to Star talent level.

As far as the comparing 'spitballs', 'cutballs', etc to Steroids use, that's just outrageous... for one thing, the 'art of cheating' or deception used to get a spitball or whatever is something that can be exposed IMMEDIATELY on the diamond and dealt with swiftly (expulsion form the game) on the spot. (i.e. Niekro's famous 'fluttering emory board' or A-Rod's <I'm really not piling on him here> 'girly swat' at Bronson Arroyo in the ALCS in 2004. They were both immediately DETECTABLE and punishment was swift and instantaneous.

STEROIDS were designed (and used) to give an UNDETECTABLE edge to a player w/ no punishment, but all the rewards.

And now players who get caught (for the most part) are trying to play it off - they weren't 'cheating', they were trying to get an 'edge' on the competition...

That said, I'm waiting to see who Tejada is about to 'out' in his plea deal when he goes to court...

All the best -

Chris

Chris,

Awesome post.

I just wish (and I'll refrain from naming names) there were a few more participants here to had the common sense you do to understand this simple relationship.....or should I say lack thereof. It's absolutely rediculous to "group" all the forms of minor infractions mentioned......in with steroid use.

Night and day.

[Mr.3000]

Re: Baseball Cheaters (Past &amp; Present)

Chris,

Awesome post.

I just wish (and I'll refrain from naming names) there were a few more participants here to had the common sense you do to understand this simple relationship.....or should I say lack thereof. It's absolutely rediculous to "group" all the forms of minor infractions mentioned......in with steroid use.

Night and day.

Cheating is cheating. Like I said, we can dance this dance all night. Atleast I have common sense enough not to be 49 and call people morons, retards and idiots to have a rational debate. Thanks skippy.