ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

[rj_lucas]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

I think that probably some players experimented with steroids in years past (probably more to bounce back from injuries quicker than to add muscle), but I doubt it was very widespread like the late 90's & early 2000's...

In other words, OK to juice a little, just not TOO much?

Assuming it was less widespread 40 years ago, doesn't that mean the guys that did it then had even more of an unfair advantage than the guys that did it ten years ago when everybody did it?

I keep using the term 'slippery slope' because that's what this issue is. And the more we try to parse it, the slicker it gets.

Terrific article, thanks for the link. Every purist on the PEDs issue should read it.

The 'good old days' were never that good. Meanwhile, the great game of baseball marches on.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

[emann]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Exactly. As I pointed out in another thread, anabolic steroids have been around since the 1930's and in common medical use since the 1950's.

This issue did not magically spring into existence 10 years ago. Remember Lyle Alzado? And that was the 1970's for crying out loud.

The difference in baseball to me though, is that baseball players didn't want to look like huge bodybuilders (and often the opposite) until the Canseco era. Then you start seeing the Kirby Puckett, Wade Boggs & Ozzie smith body types replaced by hulking mass like McGwire, Sosa & Bonds.

I think that probably some players experimented with steroids in years past (probably more to bounce back from injuries quicker than to add muscle), but I doubt it was very widespread like the late 90's & early 2000's...

Of course the claim is there that Mantle used amphetamines and possibly testosterone.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4192628

[whatupyos]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Aaron,

Fair enough, and good explanation.

The part of the whole thing that bothers me the most is the records part.

I am a baseball historian by nature: I love and respect the game, and have always loved the numbers part of it. This game is unique. The records have been developed by great players over MANY decades, and the game has (supposedly) always been played on somewhat of a level playing field. Yes, there have been small differences over the years that have benefited certain players more than others (Ott and the "short porch" at the Polo Grounds....257' at the foul pole).....and cheating that could be contrued as "part of the game".....corked bats.......greenies......spit-balls......you name it......but these guys who took steroids to bulk up......they cheated the numbers in a way that assaulted the history of the game. I have a real problem with that.

I have a problem with Manny passing Jimmie Foxx.

I have a problem with Barry Bonds passing Hank Aaron.

I have a problem with McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds making a mockery out of Roger Maris' unbelievable feat in 1961.

And if we find that Frank Thomas is on that 2003 list of 104 (and I don't believe he is, for the record!).....I would have a real problem with him tying the late GREAT Ted Williams, and Willie McCovey with 521 career knocks.

That......Aaron......is true cheating. And that was my point. It pains me to see a wonderful man like Harmon Killebrew passed by Sosa and Bonds.

I have to say, and if I searched back for it I could pull it up for you, I am with you on McGwire. He was just likable, and was good for the game. I mentioned in an earlier thread months ago that if he would just come clean, just come out and tell us all what he did, and ask for forgiveness as it was part of the game, he would be forgiven with open arms by the fans of baseball. He didn't play for the numbers, he played because he loved the game. And when the time was right, and he felt he and his body had had enough, he walked away, no questions asked. He had a BIG dollar offer from the Cards to play a couple more more years.....his reply was "I've done all I can do, and I'm not the kind to hang on." He walked away from millions to make room for Albert, who he saw was the guy to hand the torch to. He was a fine example of a gentleman, and a great baseball guy....if it just wasn't for the dang PED's!!!

Steve,

I totally understand where you are coming from and you have every right to feel that way. I don't like the fact that the numbers have been inflated either. Its an ugly part of the game, one that I hope will never happen again. And you're right, the numbers of those who played fair shouldn't have to feel dumped on because they didn't juice up. I remember going to games as a kid and it would be something special to see a home run. The older I got, once I was in high school in the mid- 90's, you'd see 3-5 homers a game. The home run to me, lost its meaning. I guess I was, and still am naive to certain things and when I saw all the old posts about the purity of the game, I was simply trying to make a point. I didn't do a great job, as I immediately typed up my initial post as a defensive mechanism. I always feel the need to stick up for McGwire. I just respect him so much. As a fan, and I know there are others with different stories, but he always treated me with respect. And like you stated, I always admired the way he played. He always said when it was his time to hang them up, he'd do so. No fairwell tour, like Gwynn and Ripken ( not picking on them, as they are both class acts as well), but that wans't McGwire's style. He wasn't a flashy guy who enjoyed being in the spotlight. He negotiated a 2 year 30 mil. contract by himself, no agent, and walked away from it. How many of us can say they'd do the same? That's pretty special right there.

But you're right, the more I chew on it, the numbers of guys like Maris are amazing, and Bonds with his 73 almost belittles what Maris accomplished.

Aaron

[rj_lucas]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Were steroids invented while Nolan was playing? Well why not question every great player then? All the greats this generation are in question so why not back in those days? Just a question i have.

Exactly. As I pointed out in another thread, anabolic steroids have been around since the 1930's and in common medical use since the 1950's.

This issue did not magically spring into existence 10 years ago. Remember Lyle Alzado? And that was the 1970's for crying out loud.

In theory, Mantle, Aaron, Mays, pick your hero, ANY of them could have been on the juice. Before someone jumps down my throat, let me emphasize, that's IN THEORY. 1959 or 1999, it doesn't matter, we'll never know the complete truth.

It's time to stop clucking our tongues and move past this.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

[Lokee]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

If you look back I allready mentioned Ryan. He pitched for 27 years and has a direct link to Canseco.

[Carlevv]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Why do we just associate steroids with the hitters? The guys that the sluggers are going deep off of are also on steroids. Remember the skinny Ryan Franklin got caught on the juice? Its not about getting stronger all the time its about recovery. Mark McGuire was going deep from the time he was in little league to the time he retired steroids or not. I bet if you asked him how he felt on steroids he would say he felt great. Great meaning nothing hurt on his body. Not great as in he felt strong like bull. I'll throw a name out that nobody dares to bring up........ Nolan Ryan. I have no facts to base this on really but wasnt the guy in his 40's throwing 100 MPH? Rogers Clemens is in the same boat right? Were steroids invented while Nolan was playing? Well why not question every great player then? All the greats this generation are in question so why not back in those days? Just a question i have.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

If this question had been sincere I would have answered it. Instead I read it as a smug, sarcastic, and condecending attempt to attack me for being a fan of Jose Canseco. I simply voiced my opinion on the topic that is being discussed. I don't feel the need to explain to you why I am a fan of Canseco. I wish you would stay on topic instead of personally calling me out. Furthermore you should be ashamed of yourself for calling a human being a worthless individual. Who are you to determine the worth of anyone? You don't know jack about Jose Canseco. Grow up and get over yourself.

P.S. It would take more patience than I have to "enlighten" you.

Jason,

Apparently, you are from a different school.

I was in no way trying to be smug, sarcastic, or anything derrogatory towards you. I stated facts about Canseco that is common knowledge. I am sorry, truly, if I stepped on your boy. I hope you will accept this for truth, and my apologies for upsetting you.....I don't even know you, so why would I want to do that?

I do think Canseco is a cretin, I'm not going to lie to you. You should not take that personally......that is simply my opinion. My God, if someone told me that the nicest guy I ever met in baseball, Harmon Killebrew, was the biggest jerk in the world, I'd say to myself "That's your opinion". I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, or think the person was a loser because of his opinion??

Again, I ask.....I am seriously interested in knowing why or how anyone who is a fan of baseball can find something to instill "fanhood" for such a creep? Feel free to ignore this if you want, but please don't misconstru my intentions.....they were genuine.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Steve,

Sorry to disappoint you my friend. I'm just sick of people acting like they're horrible people for doing stuff. I was trying to make a point. My favorite player of all time, always has been and always will be Mark McGwire. I've stuck by him and defended him his whole career. People have their opinions as to whether he used or not, and that's fine. I just again was trying to make a point that, although some people will call the people caught doing steriods "cheaters" there are people who do greenies who could be classified as "cheaters" as well. Doesn't mean they're any less or better of a person. People make mistakes. Steroids is an unfortunate part of the game. It stinks, but I believe the game will survive. I wish it wasn't an issue and people never took steroids myself. I've worked my butt off in the gym trying to attain a certain look and I see guys in there twice my size and I have my opinions whether they juice or not. I dont think anyone should use steriods. Its not fair, but I'm also not going to say they're scum of the earth either. Not that you are saying that, just others who repeatedly say their cheaters. There is no way to tell if Mantle and Ruth didn't juice. No one can say with 100% certainty that they know when and where steriods started. Just because you juice doesn't mean you're going to hulk up either. Its a tell tale sign, but there are many forms of roids that do different things, like improve eyesight, endurance, ect. not just muscle mass.

Respectfully,
Aaron

Aaron,

Fair enough, and good explanation.

The part of the whole thing that bothers me the most is the records part.

I am a baseball historian by nature: I love and respect the game, and have always loved the numbers part of it. This game is unique. The records have been developed by great players over MANY decades, and the game has (supposedly) always been played on somewhat of a level playing field. Yes, there have been small differences over the years that have benefited certain players more than others (Ott and the "short porch" at the Polo Grounds....257' at the foul pole).....and cheating that could be contrued as "part of the game".....corked bats.......greenies......spit-balls......you name it......but these guys who took steroids to bulk up......they cheated the numbers in a way that assaulted the history of the game. I have a real problem with that.

I have a problem with Manny passing Jimmie Foxx.

I have a problem with Barry Bonds passing Hank Aaron.

I have a problem with McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds making a mockery out of Roger Maris' unbelievable feat in 1961.

And if we find that Frank Thomas is on that 2003 list of 104 (and I don't believe he is, for the record!).....I would have a real problem with him tying the late GREAT Ted Williams, and Willie McCovey with 521 career knocks.

That......Aaron......is true cheating. And that was my point. It pains me to see a wonderful man like Harmon Killebrew passed by Sosa and Bonds.

I have to say, and if I searched back for it I could pull it up for you, I am with you on McGwire. He was just likable, and was good for the game. I mentioned in an earlier thread months ago that if he would just come clean, just come out and tell us all what he did, and ask for forgiveness as it was part of the game, he would be forgiven with open arms by the fans of baseball. He didn't play for the numbers, he played because he loved the game. And when the time was right, and he felt he and his body had had enough, he walked away, no questions asked. He had a BIG dollar offer from the Cards to play a couple more more years.....his reply was "I've done all I can do, and I'm not the kind to hang on." He walked away from millions to make room for Albert, who he saw was the guy to hand the torch to. He was a fine example of a gentleman, and a great baseball guy....if it just wasn't for the dang PED's!!!

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

"I have no knowledge of Rickey using steroids in any manner, shape or form," Canseco said in an interview with 950 ESPN radio in Philadelphia.

Here is the interview.

http://www.950espn.com/Audio/tabid/1...e-Canseco.aspx

Good point...

This, added to the fine rendition of pictures on a similar thread kingjammy posted, showing players faces (alledged users vs. non users) has me doing a double take and back-peddling on Henderson. Henderson's face/head looks pretty much consistent with his early years, unlike McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, etc.

I'm now wondering if Canseco was in fact referring to Reggie Jackson? Maybe we'll all eventually find out?

[JasonM33]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Jason,

I just have to know my friend.......WHAT possible facit of his career makes you a Jose Canseco fan?

The 90's "twitching" from overdosing on PED's? The Madonna history? The lack of care about the dead and suffering during the "Quake Series in '89" when all Jose cared about was getting back to playing? His nickname "The chemist"? His promotional infiltration to many players of drugs that helped ruin the record books of the game? His complete and thorough backlash on the game after he got everything deserved by self-imposed bad will to the game?

I'm sorry, but I can't think of a more worthless individual in the history of baseball to have ever surfaced.......than Jose Canseco.

Please........enlighten me?

If this question had been sincere I would have answered it. Instead I read it as a smug, sarcastic, and condecending attempt to attack me for being a fan of Jose Canseco. I simply voiced my opinion on the topic that is being discussed. I don't feel the need to explain to you why I am a fan of Canseco. I wish you would stay on topic instead of personally calling me out. Furthermore you should be ashamed of yourself for calling a human being a worthless individual. Who are you to determine the worth of anyone? You don't know jack about Jose Canseco. Grow up and get over yourself.

P.S. It would take more patience than I have to "enlighten" you.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

As has been pointed out one of the benefits of steroids is said to be recovery. So a player taking them wouldn't wear out as much as the season went on. I've heard this is a greater benefit for many users than size or strength. In many respects amphetamines did the same thing for players. Jim Bouton in his book "Ball Four" talked about the use of "greenies" (green amphetamine pills) in the clubhouses. This was in the 1960's. Bouton didn't identify who took them, but from his book it was common. If it was shown that current members of the HOF were amphetamine users how many people say they should be kicked out of the HOF? It may not be quite the same thing as steroid use , but its close. If we let amphetamine users in why not steroid users. What about steroid users who only used a few years and would have have had HOf careers even if we remove their steroid seasons. Shoud we ban them on general principles?

That, cjclong, is the worst part of all of this.

How thoroughly f'ed up are the record books, and any chance of ever being able to decipher this whole mess? Your point, deeply rooted in this stir-pot, in one of the impossible tasks. That's why I am so angry over this "era"......we'll never know. You can theorize until the cows come home.....but the truth is, there is NO WAY to figure out what could have or should have been.

That's why, when it's all said and done, I think the best of the best do eventually get to the Hall, and the ones who were known to be associated get "tagged" with an asterisk.

What else can we do? Deal with it in a rational sense, and just move on with built-in rules, measures, and testing to keep it from happening again.

[cjclong]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

As has been pointed out one of the benefits of steroids is said to be recovery. So a player taking them wouldn't wear out as much as the season went on. I've heard this is a greater benefit for many users than size or strength. In many respects amphetamines did the same thing for players. Jim Bouton in his book "Ball Four" talked about the use of "greenies" (green amphetamine pills) in the clubhouses. This was in the 1960's. Bouton didn't identify who took them, but from his book it was common. If it was shown that current members of the HOF were amphetamine users how many people say they should be kicked out of the HOF? It may not be quite the same thing as steroid use , but its close. If we let amphetamine users in why not steroid users. What about steroid users who only used a few years and would have have had HOf careers even if we remove their steroid seasons. Shoud we ban them on general principles?

[sylbry]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

"I have no knowledge of Rickey using steroids in any manner, shape or form," Canseco said in an interview with 950 ESPN radio in Philadelphia.

Here is the interview.

http://www.950espn.com/Audio/tabid/183/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4271/Jose-Canseco.aspx

[whatupyos]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Aaron,

I have to say, I'm disappointed in your views stated here.

I agree that taking "Greenies", or doing a line of coke, or taking an anphetamine is cheating......but it dosn't morphisize one's body into a super-human cartoon character able to leap small buildings in a single bound. Steroids do.

There has been NO ONE DESTRUCTIVE ASPECT ever before in the game like the abuse of steroids in the last two+ decades. It has been proven OVER and OVER with the numbers that they do, SUBSTANTIALLY effect (skew) a players numbers to the upside.....DRAMATICALLY. I could go on and on and on with examples, but that's beating a dead horse. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Manny, Ortiz, A-Rod, Giambi......I mean c'MON. Thes guys HULKED UP into monsters and broke LIFE LONG RECORDS of the game OVER and OVER again. And you want to talk about being upset over our lack of understanding about a little energy booster like a greenie?

I agree with you that the game has not and was not completely PURE.......but you are comparing apples to 1,225 lb. pumpkins grown in Half Moon Bay, California, with genetically formulated growth additives to produce effects that rendure you in utter amazement.

Get some perspective, please!

Regards,

Steve

Steve,

Sorry to disappoint you my friend. I'm just sick of people acting like they're horrible people for doing stuff. I was trying to make a point. My favorite player of all time, always has been and always will be Mark McGwire. I've stuck by him and defended him his whole career. People have their opinions as to whether he used or not, and that's fine. I just again was trying to make a point that, although some people will call the people caught doing steriods "cheaters" there are people who do greenies who could be classified as "cheaters" as well. Doesn't mean they're any less or better of a person. People make mistakes. Steroids is an unfortunate part of the game. It stinks, but I believe the game will survive. I wish it wasn't an issue and people never took steroids myself. I've worked my butt off in the gym trying to attain a certain look and I see guys in there twice my size and I have my opinions whether they juice or not. I dont think anyone should use steriods. Its not fair, but I'm also not going to say they're scum of the earth either. Not that you are saying that, just others who repeatedly say their cheaters. There is no way to tell if Mantle and Ruth didn't juice. No one can say with 100% certainty that they know when and where steriods started. Just because you juice doesn't mean you're going to hulk up either. Its a tell tale sign, but there are many forms of roids that do different things, like improve eyesight, endurance, ect. not just muscle mass.

Respectfully,
Aaron

[3arod13]

Re: ESPN - Jose Canseco Said He Knows A HOFer That Used. Who do you think it is?

Rick,

First off, thanks for the kind words.


I understand where you're coming from, but all I am trying to say to guys like Aaron, who I really like, which is why I took the time to tell him I was disappointed in his view.........is just please try to use a bit of common sense when processing this whole PED issue.

We know they use for a reason......because there's benefits to be had.

I think everyone, as a group in their postings, has done a fabulous job on hitting on exactly what those benefits are, so I won't go there (strength, short regeneration time, being fresh late in the season, etc.).

But here's the issue with your point/argument:

The guys who are using in this game already have proven they have the eye-hand coordination to play the game at the pro level......after all, they have made it. They are here.

Hopefully I won't lose a few friends here by singling out a very popular player, but as others have referred to players in their hometowns as example because they are familiar with them, I will follow suit.

Mike Piazza is a great example. Here is a guy who went from being a position player (3rd base), who was knee-jerkingly transformed into a catcher ("Hey Mike, if you want to get into the Dodger organization, they need catchers, so try on the gear") on the suggestion of Tommy Lasorda to Mike father, his friend, then drafted in the 62nd round to the Dodgers as a friend.

Okay, here's where it gets sticky, and I'm throwing out my disclaimer.....before I am asked, I have no proof other than what I have seen, and read, in various honorable publications.....so take this for what it is worth. The following is my OPINION.

Mike's steroid use was legendary in building himself into a Hall of Famer. Yes, he could hit, but he was not a body built like a Lance Parrish. He developed into a greek God after getting into the organization. Why? How? Maybe connections? Maybe he saw it going on, and realized he'd need to do the same if he were going to make it.....I'm not sure.

But he did.

And he became a Hall of Famer because of it.

Why?

Because instead of being a .270 hitter with around 120-150 home runs, maybe being a back-up catcher or a starter for a small market team, he was a .300 hitter and hit MORE home runs than any catcher in the history of the game, destroying baseballs trying to whiz by him.

Why?

Steroids.

They made him faster, incredibly stronger, and added many points to his batting average, and many feet to his tape-measure shots. Void of the roids, he doesn't even make the big leagues for a cup of coffee. Period.

As it was, his defensive abilities were sub-par. He could handle a pitcher fairly well, as Mike is a smart guy. And, after all, he was tutored by none other than Ted Williams himself as a young lad (having a wealthy father allows you privilages like that), so again, the point being he could hit.

But the PED's take you to a whole different level. If you check out the development of Mike's body from draft time to making the Dogers roster in the bigs, it was nothing short of miraculous.

It will be interesting to see how he will be treated in the Hall voting when his time comes.....and, if his name was one of the 104. My guess is that it will NOT be on that list, as Mike was smart enough to see what was going on in the league, and public's eye. He also lost some of his "punch" during his Mets years, a clear indication to me that he got off the juice.

We'll see.

Well put together! Nice job!

Regards, Tony