JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

[aeneas01]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

That is a good point. I'm big fan of MeiGray as well, but they don't show photo match itself that I've seen in its listings on their site. Also, for the service, you have to pay extra in most cases. I know when they did auction some LeBron James game worn jerseys on NBA.com. They did say it was photo matched and it would be included in the auction to the buyer, but never had the photo itself in the auction.

exactly, indyred...

meigray lists items as "photomatched" in the their listing titles yet does not include a single image of the photomatch and in many cases doesn't even provide an item description, just photos of the lot. nonetheless rudy feels compelled to single meigray out as the perfect example of how a business should handle photomatches. in fact, despite meigray not supplying any photomatches in their "photomatched" listings, rudy gushes "barry sells you what he says he's selling you."

but when it comes to guua, rudy feels quite differently:

a) "none of the jerseys listed as "PHOTOMATCHED" show any photomatches...remove the "PHOTOMATCHED" titles. sell what you say you're selling." b) "if you sell a shirt as "PHOTOMATCHED" then show the photomatch!" c) "5 jerseys billed as being photomatched, not a single photomatch was shown."

as i posted on the other thread, deciding not to post photomatches was a decision made based on the limitations of the new auction software (only allows 8 photos per lot) and the consignor's input. simple as that. it was my understanding that the consignor wanted to use the limited number of image spaces to showcase the details of his lots (closeups, game wear, etc.) and that he felt simply stating the items were photomatched would suffice given a) the obvious quality of the items b) you would have to be utterly insane to make such a claim regarding such high-profile jerseys with someone like rudy around if they weren't indeed photomatched and c) we could simply provide anyone that requested a look at the photomatches with our findings. so i checked them out myself, easily found what i considered to be photomatches and thought fine. seemed rather benign at the time.

flash forward to yesterday - i noticed that rudy had requested to see photomatches in the guu auction discussion section, albeit not the moment he posted. so i pulled up my photos and photoshop and went to work merging game photos to lot photos while using red circles as little as possible. perfect, just as it was supposed to work. not quite - because i then discovered the other thread after posting the matches. beautiful. tried to explain, fell on deaf ears. alas.

if you would have told me before this whacked debate (jmo) began that meigray lists items as photomatched without providing a single photomatched image, photo reference number or even an item description, just a "please call this number if you have any questions about this jersey or email us here", it wouldn't even have occurred to me to blink an eye. heck, if you told me you can go to meigray's site at this very moment and check out a "photomatched" $12,500 stanley cup flyers jersey listing that features zero photomatched images and a three line description, i wouldn't have blinked an eye either. i would have simply thought, hey, if you wanted more info about the their photomatched shirts, just give them a call and i'm sure they would give you all the info you wanted. no big deal.

but when it comes to guua it's apparently a very big deal, so much so that we get this right out of the box from rudy:

"All of these jerseys are listed as being "PHOTOMATCHED". 1) what is the point of listing an item as "PHOTOMATCHED" and not providing the actual photomatch? if someone went to all the trouble of photomatching those jerseys, then why not post the photomatches so bidders can evaluate them and adjust their bids accordingly?"

conversely, rudy continues to gush over meigray because he'll get to go home with a glossy AFTER the auction and/or AFTER he makes a store purchase! beautiful - no photomatched photos available for viewing with your "photomatched" lots while i'm considering a purchase? no item description either? hey, no problem! but i still get a glossy if i buy, right? mama mia...

...

[aeneas01]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

i do think meigray ought to show the photomatch in their listings.

nicely put rudy, much nicer than:

none of the jerseys listed as "PHOTOMATCHED" show any photomatches...remove the "PHOTOMATCHED" titles. sell what you say you're selling." b) "if you sell a shirt as "PHOTOMATCHED" then show the photomatch!" c) "5 jerseys billed as being photomatched, not a single photomatch was shown."

...

[mvandor]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Robert, you seem to be avoiding both my suggestion and Barry Meisel's comments as to his intentions. It would seem to me a quick consultation with your partners, and a policy change and post regarding same, would be in your and your connsignors' best interests.

Respectfully...

[MarinersFan34]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

MeiGray doesn't get a free pass nor should they. Yes, they should include the photo(s) they used for their Photomatches. At the same time, how many jerseys does MeiGray have in stock thousands? tens of thousands? You compare that to a less than 500 lot auction in which not all items are jerseys or are even called photomatched? While I have not done so yet, I'd actually prefer MeiGray's service of providing a quality photo with your jersey.

Now again, I think MeiGray should have provided photos when they claim a photomatch but when GUU has less than 500 items, the attention to detail should be there. The photomatches should have been posted, esp. in the Romo where there's only 6 photos shown.

Should we remove all of the photos in the photomatched thread on the forum? I mean it's the same thing right, why should ANY of us have to prove we have that photomatch we can just say it is and there's photos out there, go find it yourself.

It really should have been a simple short thread "Where's the photomatch pictures?" "They're right here I'll post them to the auction" Instead we get this long drawn out discussion that is more of a pissing match.

Maybe GUU can quit the BS and stop saying well MeiGray was the example and they don't do it.. Maybe GUU should shut up, man up and post the matches. Instead of going down the same path of they don't do it either.. but.. but.. they don't do it either. Sounds like a little kid not getting his way.

Be THAT company that other ones want to be and then say, they don't do it but we do!

Is it really that difficult? ..I guess it is.

[BarryMeisel]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Hi eveybody,

I double-checked with my lead authenticator, Stu Oxenhorn, who spearheads our photo-matching and authentication services and works closely with Getty Images.

He told me why we don't post the photo-matches: We are prohibited from doing so. Our contract with Getty permits us to offer a Getty Image as a photographic LOA only as part of an authentication process. In fact, if we were asked to make a copy of the photo without the LOA-type information, just as a glossy 8 X 10, we could not. And we could not send the digital photo in downloaded form to anybody, we can only use it for our research/authentication purposes.

We do appreciate the suggestion of improving our descriptions for photo-matched (and in some cases, non photo-matched) jerseys. We'll work on that. Thanks for the feedback.

And a suggestion: Let's please keep the debate constructive, not vitriolic. Constructive criticism, no matter to whom it is pointed, is better for the hobby.

Barry

[indyred]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

I think its a great topic and I bet a thread like this will make a difference. MeiGray has already said they will now include the photo matches on it's jerseys where they have one in hand. From now on and in future GUU auctions, I bet we will see photo matches in every auction that says it has one.
Stuff like this makes it a better hobby. Half the fun in collecting game used stuff is finding and showing off photo matches.
I have no idea what it costs to get a deal with Getty Images to have access. I would be cool if GUU offered a service to photo match stuff or just be able to print pictures where people already have the image # and did all the work. Just a have them print it for you.
Also with HD TV it is amazing the detail you can see on jerseys and equipment. Another source to match any unwashed modern day jersey that has use on it.
Threads like this make this a great site.

[indyred]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Hi eveybody,

I double-checked with my lead authenticator, Stu Oxenhorn, who spearheads our photo-matching and authentication services and works closely with Getty Images.

He told me why we don't post the photo-matches: We are prohibited from doing so. Our contract with Getty permits us to offer a Getty Image as a photographic LOA only as part of an authentication process. In fact, if we were asked to make a copy of the photo without the LOA-type information, just as a glossy 8 X 10, we could not. And we could not send the digital photo in downloaded form to anybody, we can only use it for our research/authentication purposes.

We do appreciate the suggestion of improving our descriptions for photo-matched (and in some cases, non photo-matched) jerseys. We'll work on that. Thanks for the feedback.

And a suggestion: Let's please keep the debate constructive, not vitriolic. Constructive criticism, no matter to whom it is pointed, is better for the hobby.

Barry

I figured that might be the case. Thanks for letting us know.

[5kRunner]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Hi eveybody,

I double-checked with my lead authenticator, Stu Oxenhorn, who spearheads our photo-matching and authentication services and works closely with Getty Images.

He told me why we don't post the photo-matches: We are prohibited from doing so. Our contract with Getty permits us to offer a Getty Image as a photographic LOA only as part of an authentication process. In fact, if we were asked to make a copy of the photo without the LOA-type information, just as a glossy 8 X 10, we could not. And we could not send the digital photo in downloaded form to anybody, we can only use it for our research/authentication purposes.

We do appreciate the suggestion of improving our descriptions for photo-matched (and in some cases, non photo-matched) jerseys. We'll work on that. Thanks for the feedback.

And a suggestion: Let's please keep the debate constructive, not vitriolic. Constructive criticism, no matter to whom it is pointed, is better for the hobby.

Barry

Barry,
Are you sure you can't post the photo matches?

Rudy and Robert both agree that you/they can under "Fair Use".

Although I'm no attorney, it seems to me that in editing the photos to show the photomatches, GUU's use might fall into the category of Fair Use which stipulates that copyrighted works may be used, without permission, for the purposes of criticism, commentary, and/or parody. if you're discussing a jersey and use a getty photo to illustrate what you're talking about, i believe that constitutes Fair Use.

a long time ago, people here discussed Historic Auction's listings and used their photos. In reply, Historic said it wanted all of its auction photos removed from any GUU threads. the GUU discussions were completely in the realm of criticism and commentary. while i argued it constituted Fair Use, chris cavalier played it safe and removed them.

there's plenty of information available on Fair Use but here's a quick primer:

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-a.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

rudy.

i agree with rudy. in fact i've actually called getty and wire image to ask about this very topic, auction houses (and ebayers) using their photos as reference material - they seemed as if they could care less...
...

I'm not wanting to start trouble. I just want to make sure I understand.

[staindsox]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

I think fair use might be a tough sell since this is a for-profit endeavor.

[kingjammy24]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

re: fair use/getty images/posting matches

i just called barry to discuss exactly what he meant, as i too was a little confused. here's the story as explained to me by barry:

when meigray discusses photos/matches, they're not referring to the watermarked images used by robert and seen on the getty site. they're referring to un-watermarked, purchased images at full resolutions. if meigray photomatches an item to one of their purchased images, they can send this image privately but they can't post it publically. this is an apples-and-oranges comparison with GUU as GUU is not using purchased, un-watermarked, full-res images. if you'll look at the images robert has posted, they all have watermarks on them. GUU did not purchase any of them. getty doesn't care in the least if you use their watermarked images. they're already online for everyone to see so posting them here would be no problem.

the photos that meigray uses and the photos that robert used are entirely different in terms of their legal restrictions. i asked barry if he could publically post the same sort of watermarked, unpurchased images as robert has used and he said he could but typically those images aren't great for photomatching as they simply don't show the necessary detail.
when you have a full-repository of full-res images to use for photomatching, using small, watermarked images makes little sense.
when meigray photomatches, they're able to take their purchased images and zoom in with great clarity at great resolution. they can send you, for example, an 8x10 of a single thread hanging off a single letter.

so it's apples and oranges. barry wasn't referring to the types of photos that robert used. robert can indeed publically post the watermarked images he's used. meigray on the other hand uses un-watermarked images and its those that meigray is unable to post publically.

however, barry said he understood completely that when an individual is considering paying a substantial premium for a photomatched item, common sense dictates that he ought to be able to see the match to ascertain how solid it is.

rudy.

[5kRunner]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Rudy,
Thanks for the clarification. I was confused at first. Makes sense now.

Thanks again.

[kingjammy24]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

Gentlemen,

Thanks for raising great points about listing jerseys as photo-matched, and for the obvious good suggestion...

wow. imagine if interacting with robert and jarrod was this easy. this whole thing would've amounted to 2 posts.

all i said in the beginning was that photomatches should be included on lots billed as "photomatched". i can't believe such a simple, common sense idea has caused robert to continue to thrash around so much. robert, i'm pretty much done at this point. honestly, i really don't care enough about GUU to pursue the insanity that this thread has devolved into. i now know in the future not to direct any suggestions towards you/JOSports/GUU lest it compel you to win another debating award. to end it all off:

"deciding not to post photomatches was a decision made based on the limitations of the new auction software (only allows 8 photos per lot)"

the romo disproves this and i imagine thats why you keep ignoring it.

" .. and the consignor's input...it was my understanding that the consignor wanted to use the limited number of image spaces to showcase the details of his lots (closeups, game wear, etc.) and that he felt simply stating the items were photomatched would suffice.."

so with the romo, did the conversation sort of go like this:

robert - we've got two empty slots on the romo. we can show your photomatch. collectors love photomatches. it would be good.

jarrod - no forget it. don't show them.

robert - but the slots are empty. they're going to waste.

jarrod - good. leave them empty.

robert - great idea!

common knowledge in this hobby says that photomatches trump everything. if you have a consigner, like jarrod, who doesn't understand this basic and universal concept, then you need to talk some sense into him and yourself. again, there is no collector who would rather see a close-up of a fleur-de-lis or a patch than a solid photomatch. if you and jarrod believe they would, then you're both woefully ill-informed.

"..the obvious quality of the items"

what does this even mean? an item of "obvious quality" would surely have a solid, easy-to-find photomatch? like the ringo shirt?

"..you would have to be utterly insane to make such a claim regarding such high-profile jerseys with someone like rudy around"

so GUU auction policy depends on me being around? what do you guys do..plan your auctions around my vacations?

"rudy continues to gush over meigray because he'll get to go home with a glossy AFTER the auction"

as opposed to winning a "photomatched" item from GUU, where i'll get no glossy before or after?

rudy.

[ndevlin]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

All you would have to do in the auction listing is say the item is photomatched by getty photo #11110002222.


Quite simple really....

[camarokids]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

All you would have to do in the auction listing is say the item is photomatched by getty photo #11110002222.


Quite simple really....

Nate,
I was thinking the same thing...

[schubert1970]

Re: JoSports did you misspeak???? How many Sanchez jerseys are there???

War and Peace was shorter than this thread.

I don't like to point fingers, but at this point I believe this is all Obama's fault and I'm willling to move on.