JSA autograph authentication question

[buzzy12]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

For those who haven't seen this site , it is a must

http://www.behindthegavel.com/index.html

[buzzy12]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Ok here we go , I believe that the picture links will work. Now as I stated , oh and by the way I screwed up saying it was a '52 Yanks ball, I meant 1953.

Here is a copy and paste of the e-mail letter I received from a VERY big authenticator from Heritage....And below that is the e-mail that the buyer of the '53 ball received from another very big Heritage authenticator.
But I love the way they get around the contradiction of their so called findings, and you will see that email also. I have erased the names as I'm not quite ready to spill who wrote these letters...


This is the first initial letter I read....sounds like he's authenticating the ball to me , or am I oblivious?? And gives a value....and wants me to consign it !

Hello Vinnie,

Thank you for the inquiry. The Mantle signature is good. The ones on the Brooklyn ball, in my opinion, are not authentic and appear secretarial. The Yankees ball might have a $1500-$2500 value. If you are interested in consigning the ball to one of our Signature Sports Auctions, let me know and I will send you some paperwork. Read below for some pertinent information on myself and Heritage Auctions.

Best Regards,




This letter is what I received back in March, after the buyer bought it directly from me , he in turn decided to consign it and this is the letter he received from the SAME COMPANY ... 6 months later....What changed??


(Buyer),
The Mantle signature on the 1953 TSBB is CH. The value is closer to $500. Would you like us to place it in an Internet auction or have it returned?




Now the buyer is furious and has every right, I am furious and have every right also. How can this be. And the answer I got ...


Mr. Buyer/Seller
Thank you for your email. Our consignment directors receive hundreds of inquiries on a weekly basis and provide collectors with opinions on their material while providing market estimates. The evaluations are a complimentary service. Heritage Auctions is not an autograph authentication service. It is our model to request third-party authentication for all autographs in all our sports auctions, regardless of our in-house opinion of the item. If you are purchasing and selling autographed material then I suggest that you do so with letters of authentication that come from trusted hobby authentication firms such as PSA/DNA or JSA. This is an issue that needs to be corrected between yourself and the seller of the item, not with Heritage since once again, we are not an authentication service.
Best,

Now this is my answer:

This is where they are wrong. Yes Heritage is not an authentication company but *** and *** are authenticators... Legends they say. Why do they need a third party, if we can't trust a legend than who can we trust. Its complete bull ** as far as I'm concerned and they should be held liable. I have had many *** letters of authenticity through the years. What are they saying now, he needs a third party?? He is the third party !

Anyway, as I am saying, and really to the novice collector because us seasoned ones have been through the ringer at one time or another and I am sure they know who I am talking about above, Is it good to have authenticators?? the answer is YES, is it good to have 500 of them....NO , because now it becomes a who do you trust game...the bottom line is, they are all wrong, not about the authenticating part, but the part about taking .... stealing our hard earned money for a lousy opinion , and if I spend that kind of money it better be REAL TO EVERY authenticator !

My point with heritage is that in every e-mail they rudely stated that Heritage is not an authenticator, HMMM, idiots.....Heritage is a business , the people are the authenticators, and that's who I talked to REAL LIVE PEOPLE .... who call themselves legends.

[buzzy12]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

How do I post photos on this site? I've been fighting with Heritage all day today, I could write a book on what happened today.

[justinbittner220]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Post some pics of everything. All the guys here will give their HONEST OPINIONS on each item on why or why not the items are questionable.

[diamondicons]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Can you post a photo of the 52 Yankees Ball for us all to see. Thanks!

[buzzy12]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

I'm a first timer on this site but a 30 year collector and have NOT collected an autograph in the last 10 years. But as a dealer in the business I have had many signatures cross my way and the battle of the authenticator has been rediculous. Trust?? For what I say, You pay wayyyy to much money for what I now learn is just an opinion. In this book I'm about to write here on this forum , I'm not going to state any names but I will say it's the big ones out there that I am talking about, so I'm sure you can figure this out. Let's start with a painting I did of Mickey Mantle that I had signed in person in 1988 in Brooklyn, ask if it came back to me real.....yep you got it !! No it didn't, and I stood there and have a picture of me and Mick to prove it is real, recently , say about a year ago I had a Beatles collection come my way. 11 seperate pieces with the big one being a Beatles album signed by all four, the gentleman I received it all from not only had the Sotherby's catalogs with the photos of each item in there but also had his original receipts from the late 80's and 90's. When I went to one of the top dogs, a panel of so called authenticators decided that all but 2 were NOT REAL ! And that album worth $15,000, now not worth 15 cents. How did I feel when I had to go back to the owner and tell him that his 20 something year old collection was worthless. The answer I got from the owner , the big company that bears his name was that the technology today is much more than what they had years ago. Ok, possibly true....but Sotherby's??? So is all that Art and political stuff they have sold that we all possibly have in our collections Real....or Fake?? After years of passing it by in our hallways thinking it's a real signature, art or whatever just to have some "opinion" state that your collection is worthless, it's rediculous.
Just two months ago (and I am going to say the company's name) I sent a Honus Wagner autograph post card to PSA, it came back "questionable Authenticity" WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ??? So I call and I ask the rude woman who answered, "What the Hell is this??" If I wanted to find out that you didn't know I would have asked the baggage guy at the Shop Rite....basically you robbed $150 from me to tell me that you don't know, and with that the woman replies ..."well that is our opinion" WHAT OPINION.....YOU DON'T KNOW ...and you still have my $150 !!! Crazy, so In turn I listed it on ebay and in my listing I stated what PSA said, so I received a high bid of a little over $300 measily bucks , and not to mention a dealer with nothing but PSA authenticated signatures and well over 40,000+ feedbacks....this is who bought the so called questionable signature...I bet he got it authenticated with a "Yes it's real' and probably got $1500 for it. AMAZING !!!
I could go on, but the last straw happened tonight. 6 months ago I sold the last piece of autographs from my collection...a 1952 Yankees baseball. Because of the garbage that I dealt with I decided to send a very clear and detailed photograph over to one of the major authenticators over to Heritage Auctions, a place I have dealt with before. Actually, I wanted to purchase the ball and get an opinion and did...The Mantle is real ! Not a clubhouse !! Great , I'll buy it I said to myself. Well a month later I decided I was not going to keep it because I was getting laid off etc. So I sell the ball with the e-mail conformation stating that the Mantle signature IS REAL (exact words) So I sell it...now 6 months later the buyer comes back to me and says that the Mantle IS a clubhouse signature and the authenticator is the other big guy from Heritage. Hmmmmm...what the heck is going on here !!! I'm completely out of the business, I'm sickened after 30 years of this stupid hobby, and this is what I have to deal with ! Anyway, remember, I sold the ball with one guys letter and he received an e-mail from one of the other guys, both from the same place , two different answers, and now I have the buyer threatning me , well am I wrong??? I don't think so what so ever, but that is regardless anyway.
My issue is that I work very very very HARD for my money, what ever little I have left and what I have seen over the years and now recently makes me want to puke. These guys have cornered the market with this crap just to make the novice collector comfortable. I have said time and time again, if you want a real Babe Ruth signature than you should have been alive when he was. Look, ya want to collect, do your own homework. Paying these guys for a service just to tell you that they don't know, or it's questionable, or one guy says it's real one says it's not, c'mon people !!! Look, I really don't care anymore as I am in no way spending my money on this stuff anymore, but I'm gonna tell ya, especially the newbies out there....collect a glove, or a STORE MODEL bat, you know it is what it is....and don't even get me started with "Game bats' that's another racket for another forum.
Yes I am very disgruntle but what I had to deal with tonight (and I'm sure it's not over) has pissed me off beyond belief. And anyone who knows me, knows that I don't get mad. This is the last straw.

[Dalkiel]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

i concur that it was a sad, embarrassing but isolated incident. some newbie employee was caught off-guard faced with approving a semi-star's signature that was signing on-sight. based on the exemplar library that jsa possesses and advanced, signature verifying methods, i see them in the forefront of autograph authenticating. i imagine the person was reprimanded if not fired for his poor performance on that day and that stricter procedure were implemented to prevent a similar situation in the future. if this had happen with a high end $1K item on that video, JSA would seize to exist.

That guy was no novice authenticator. It was 'Larry' one of their head guys, if not their head guy (aside from Spence).

He's probably the least friendly human being on the face of the planet. They'd have been doing the world a favor by firing him.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Legaleagle, I went to the site you suggested and was shocked to see some of the misses on autographs. I know that authenticating autographs is not an exact science, but I was surprised at how far off some of them were. I decided to go with the Steiner ball as I trust them on their signings. Too bad there are so many fakes out there as it makes you reluctant to purchase autographed items. Steiner is about the only one I'll purchase where I haven't seen a player sign in front of me.

Yeah it is scary how many fakes there are, the good news though is that there are quite a few reliable sources. Upper Deck authenticated, Tristar Productions, Mounted Memories, Ironclad Authentics and Locker Room Memorabilia and CSA Shows (Collector's Showcase of America) are a few, besides Steiner. Also from other compaines if a baseball has the MLB hologram and before purchase you verify the number in the database that MLB.com maintains, the item is real. (Meaning the description in the database for that hologram number matches the item in question)

[legaleagle92481]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

I am going to borrow something from Mike Lupica, one of my favorite sports writers. After Canseco's first book came out and outed all those steroid users, he asked "if it were not true where are the lawsuits?" If autographalert.com and richardsimonsports.com and other sites like them were spreading lies about PSA, JSA and GAI how come those companies have not sued for libel (written defamation) and gotten an injunction and monetary damages? There is no doubt that they are aware of it and that it does hurt their business so you would think that they would want to be vindicated and put a stop to it.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Last Month, I won four (4) items in a single lot from a Major auction House. The first issue I had was neither the auction house or JSA would give me a LOA for each item. One LOA covered all four (4) items.

The second issue I had was there were typos on the one LOA I did receive. Eventually, I got a corrected LOA but I had to jump through hoops to get it. It seemed to me that JSA didn't care about the accuracy of the LOA - all they wanted to do is sell me a "upgraded" LOA.

If an item comes with a LOA from JSA, that's fine but I certainly would NOT seek them out to authenticate an item for me.

Just my opinion,

Jim

[mdube16]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

I have watched James Spence work and its an amazing thing to behold. The key is no matter how knowledgeable he is, its still just an opinion. Jimmy himself will be the first to tell you that.

If Im buying something on ebay or from a dealer that isnt UDA or the like, JSA or PSA/DNA are the only ones I would trust.

[David]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

As far as the big companies go, JSA has a good overall hobby reputation, on the order of PSA/DNA. In fact, Spence used to be the head expert at PSA/DNA.

[cjclong]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Legaleagle, I went to the site you suggested and was shocked to see some of the misses on autographs. I know that authenticating autographs is not an exact science, but I was surprised at how far off some of them were. I decided to go with the Steiner ball as I trust them on their signings. Too bad there are so many fakes out there as it makes you reluctant to purchase autographed items. Steiner is about the only one I'll purchase where I haven't seen a player sign in front of me.

[joelsabi]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

If I am not mistaken the lady submitted her 8x10 with the show ticket to buy what should have been the autograph.

Personally, I really do trust JSA and PSA/DNA. That incident is isolated based on my knowledge of autographs. I would not touch GAI anymore though since they have been passing highly questionable ones in the past couple year.

i concur that it was a sad, embarrassing but isolated incident. some newbie employee was caught off-guard faced with approving a semi-star's signature that was signing on-sight. based on the exemplar library that jsa possesses and advanced, signature verifying methods, i see them in the forefront of autograph authenticating. i imagine the person was reprimanded if not fired for his poor performance on that day and that stricter procedure were implemented to prevent a similar situation in the future. if this had happen with a high end $1K item on that video, JSA would seize to exist.

[CUTiger23]

Re: JSA autograph authentication question

Some people still trust them. Personally I and alot of others do not and think it is just tossing money in the trash. Go to www.autographalert.com or Richard Simon's website if you would like to read some horror stories about them and the people who "authenticate" for them. Or google "jsa" and "sal bando" and you will get links to stories and videos about the "sting" a news station ran on them. In summary Mr. Bando was signing at a show in Chicago and JSA was there "authenticating" the female reporter on camera forged Mr. Bando's signature on a photo in the parking lot outside the show then she went inside with it and JSA "authenticated" it.

If I am not mistaken the lady submitted her 8x10 with the show ticket to buy what should have been the autograph.

Personally, I really do trust JSA and PSA/DNA. That incident is isolated based on my knowledge of autographs. I would not touch GAI anymore though since they have been passing highly questionable ones in the past couple year.