Disappointed in Pujols...

[godwulf]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

Everyone here seems to find it logical that selling autographed baseballs makes no sense unless the people selling them can make money doing so. So... why can't the players make some dough, too, without it being considered "greedy." Why is it that only the dealers can have a profit margin?

Pujols makes many times as much money playing baseball as his teammates. Why shouldn't he likewise make many more times as much signing baseballs? Put another way, and relating it to game used, what's the price differential between a GU8 Cardinals common bat, and a GU8 Pujols?

Bottom line: Take anything Cardinals common, and if you compare it to Pujols, multiply it by a factor of 10 or 20.

If Pujols were forced to pay 10-20 times as much for job-related expenses, like clubhouse fees, or for that matter things that everyone has to buy, like food and housing, that might begin to make some logical sense. No, he shouldn't be expected to give his autograph away to people who aren't even pretending that they aren't going to turn around and make money from it - reference my earlier rant about the auto-seekers with their binders full of duplicate cards - but causing your fellow players to lose out because you can't deal with the thought of only getting a "measly" $100 (or whatever the number) a signature, instead of the $250-$500 your ego tells you it's worth, is not reasonable, defensible, or Big League. It's being an arrogant jerk, imho.

[Mark17]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

You are right, but that is a different argument than what this thread was originally talking about. A team ball is not being marketed and sold this year because it was cost prohibitive to do it and the memorabilia companies didn't see a way to make a profit off of it.

As somebody who worked tirelessly on getting 2006 and 2007 Detroit Tigers team signed baseballs signed, I can attest to the fact that the amount of time, money and effort far exceeds what I could sell those baseballs for. Team signed items are some of the toughest items to complete and usually it isn't the stars that are a problem, it's often the role players that had short careers that are the toughest to track down to complete your item. Case in point, after working on several team signed 1984 Tigers pieces, the only player I need is Marty Castillo and nobody has heard from him in over a decade. if he did a paid signing in the Detroit area, I bet he could get $35+ per signature.

Everyone here seems to find it logical that selling autographed baseballs makes no sense unless the people selling them can make money doing so. So... why can't the players make some dough, too, without it being considered "greedy." Why is it that only the dealers can have a profit margin?

Pujols makes many times as much money playing baseball as his teammates. Why shouldn't he likewise make many more times as much signing baseballs? Put another way, and relating it to game used, what's the price differential between a GU8 Cardinals common bat, and a GU8 Pujols?

Bottom line: Take anything Cardinals common, and if you compare it to Pujols, multiply it by a factor of 10 or 20.

[hdavid_27]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

For anyone who may be interested, my wife just called me to tell me that Sams Club is offering team signed 2011 Cardinals baseballs for sale for only $2000.00. She said Albert is listed as one of the signers, and it comes from a company in Florida. I will get more info if anyone wants it.

[sox83cubs84]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

That it might not be worth a player's time to do a paid signing, because he's just too damn rich to have to worry about making another hundred grand for an hour's work, does not explain why that player won't sign for his fans, for nothing. And if he's really all that worried about somebody making money off of his autograph, then reducing the Sellers' profit motive by giving it away at every opportunity - in effect, flooding the market with his autograph - would seem to be the logical solution.

Here in Phoenix, Luis Gonzalez is about as big a sports celebrity as one ever gets to be...but the owner of a memorabilia shop told me the other day that he can't sell Gonzo's autograph anymore because Gonzo walks around signing for everybody all the time.

That was a route the late Hall of Fame 3B Pie Traynor used, in tandem with an elite autograph collector of the day, Max Schrager of California. After being refused by Traynor yet again, Schrager, never one to not say what's on his mind, asked Traynor why he didn't sign. Traynor's response was that too many people were making money off the few autographs he signed. Schrager and Traynor then worked out an agreement, after Schrager convinced him that his reluctance to sign was what made his autographs pricey (for the era). Traynor signed 3x5s and other items in quantities for Schrager, who then sold the items at well under the market value of the era, all in an effort to make Traynor's autograph more desirable for collectors, and less so for dealers. It worked. Traynor, while signing a stack of index cards for Schrager, told an inquiring mind that "Mr. Schrager is helping me keep the price ofmy autograh down".

Dave Miedema

[godwulf]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

You are right, but that is a different argument than what this thread was originally talking about. A team ball is not being marketed and sold this year because it was cost prohibitive to do it and the memorabilia companies didn't see a way to make a profit off of it.

It would be interesting to know what the "lesser gods" from that team were, in theory, going to be paid, had Pujols chosen to participate. I don't suppose it would have ever occurred to Albert that, by demanding as much as he did, he cost his less-well-compensated teammates some money. Now he gets nothing, and his teammates get nothing.

[mbrieve]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

That it might not be worth a player's time to do a paid signing, because he's just too damn rich to have to worry about making another hundred grand for an hour's work, does not explain why that player won't sign for his fans, for nothing. And if he's really all that worried about somebody making money off of his autograph, then reducing the Sellers' profit motive by giving it away at every opportunity - in effect, flooding the market with his autograph - would seem to be the logical solution.

Here in Phoenix, Luis Gonzalez is about as big a sports celebrity as one ever gets to be...but the owner of a memorabilia shop told me the other day that he can't sell Gonzo's autograph anymore because Gonzo walks around signing for everybody all the time.

You are right, but that is a different argument than what this thread was originally talking about. A team ball is not being marketed and sold this year because it was cost prohibitive to do it and the memorabilia companies didn't see a way to make a profit off of it.

As somebody who worked tirelessly on getting 2006 and 2007 Detroit Tigers team signed baseballs signed, I can attest to the fact that the amount of time, money and effort far exceeds what I could sell those baseballs for. Team signed items are some of the toughest items to complete and usually it isn't the stars that are a problem, it's often the role players that had short careers that are the toughest to track down to complete your item. Case in point, after working on several team signed 1984 Tigers pieces, the only player I need is Marty Castillo and nobody has heard from him in over a decade. if he did a paid signing in the Detroit area, I bet he could get $35+ per signature.

[godwulf]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

That it might not be worth a player's time to do a paid signing, because he's just too damn rich to have to worry about making another hundred grand for an hour's work, does not explain why that player won't sign for his fans, for nothing. And if he's really all that worried about somebody making money off of his autograph, then reducing the Sellers' profit motive by giving it away at every opportunity - in effect, flooding the market with his autograph - would seem to be the logical solution.

Here in Phoenix, Luis Gonzalez is about as big a sports celebrity as one ever gets to be...but the owner of a memorabilia shop told me the other day that he can't sell Gonzo's autograph anymore because Gonzo walks around signing for everybody all the time.

[mbrieve]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

Let me just add that this situation isn't really as scandalous as it is being made out to be. For example, Miguel Cabrera and Justin Verlander are the biggest Detroit Tiger stars currently. The local promoters would love to bring them in for signings, but they have not been able to sign a deal with either one of them where the promoter believes they can make money (or break even). It is possible that for both of them that the money being offered isn't really worth their time (when you are making $20 million a year, what is a $100,000?).

So, is anyone to blame? If the promoter or player takes less than market value to please the general public, you will have dealers loading up and flipping the items on eBay...the market will always prevail. I just don't understand the outrage or the media (i.e. Rovell) hyping this story.

[mbrieve]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

I follow Rovell on twitter and during the World Series he mentioned that there was no commercially available 2006 Cardinals team signed baseball brought to market due to Pujols' high fee. He mentioned that in 2010 the same thing happened with the Giants and I believe he mentioned Tim Lincecum as the cost prohibitive player.

Rovell also mentioned that it only takes one of the star players to hold out for them not to do a ball. I believe in 2009, Steiner had a team signed Yankees ball, but it was missing one or two players (I believe A.J. Burnett was one of them). In that case, I'm guessing Steiner said, we have Jeter, ARod, Texeira, Rivera, etc., who is going to notice Burnett missing???

I think the anger is a bit misplaced. Pujols is clearing doing signings with the likes of Steiner and others. However, these companies have decided that the cost of a team ball including Pujols (and lets face it, you need Pujols), is more than most consumers are willing to pay, so why go through the hassle? It isn't Pujols saying no to signing team balls, it is the companies saying that the retail price would be cost prohibitive.

[Griffey24fan]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

Again, both baseballs that are team signed in this page are 100% not authentic.

The Pujols on both baseballs is fake 100%.

Yes there may be some signed by him which were done IP during the World Series as it seems he signed on the road, however neither one of those are real. I am sure some will come out, at some point. Anyone who is wanting one wait until the winter warm up in St. Louis to get one signed before the season starts.

[godwulf]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

... as an example, a couple of years ago Lastings Milledge told us he couldn't sign because his 'balls hurt'...

When I was in the Navy, there was a saying that meant that you were full of crap about something: "Your ass hurts!" Don't know why that just came back to me.

Gose has been harder to get this AFL than Bryce Harper!

The funny thing is, I didn't particularly want Gose's autograph - I just wanted him to sign the ball because it was one that he'd hit foul in a game earlier in the week, and collecting foul balls and getting them signed by the guy who hit them is one of my favorite Fall League activities. The Rafters didn't have a game till that night, but I went out to Phoenix Muni that morning just to get Gose to sign that ball; I hadn't even planned to stay for the whole game, but he told me, "After the game", then vanished after the game without a trace.

Even funnier - as I was fixing to leave, I saw a skinny Black kid in a Toronto uniform signing for a guy in the tunnel leading down to the locker room, and I heard the guy say what sounded like "Thanks, Anthony", so I quickly dug out the ball and passed it under the wire with a pen, and the player signs it, then turns away, and I realize that what the guy had actually said was, "Thanks, Adeiny"...Hechavarria. Well, it's signed, anyway, even if by the wrong guy.

[BU54CB]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

i never have a problem with anyone cashing in on their name.

And I certainyl think my fandom of the Rays and the small $3,000 I spend a year in merch, game used and tickets "pays" anyone's salary directly. Indirectly yes, but we as the public has accepted and tolerated our own treatment.

No player owes any fan anything in my opinion. Could it be considered rude, i guess by some people's standards.

Also, I also do not think athletes are overpaid AT ALL. Look at the top 700 people in most professions in this country, most of them are all making more than a very good percentage of athletes and can do their jobs for a couple decades. Most pro sports careers (baseball has exceptions) last on the high end 15 years. And athletes also get about 42% taken out of taxes and union fees. No they shouldn't get sympathy really, but keep in mind they are the best at what they do and millions of people have tried their same sport and failed to excel.

Guys like Peyton Manning have almost single handedly doubled the value of the franchise by their play on the field.

What value has Pujols added to St. Louis in general? Do they even make the playoffs without him? Hey, I dislike him as much as anyone, but off the field eh should be able to do what he wants and I am all for anyone cashing in on their own name. It is tough enough to make a dollar as it is, do what you have to do. And yes, he makes millions and blah, blah blah, it is is right to do it, as it is anyones right to dislike it.

Believe me if I was a pro athlete, I would be far worse than the majority of these guys on all levels.

Just curious, if you're $3K doesn't pay salaries, then what does it pay for? The money has to come from somewhere.

[OaklandAsFan]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

Incidentally, an early report on a young player's signing propensities: Anthony Gose, who will almost certainly be a Major Leaguer in the next year or two - definitely one of the "too good to sign" variety. I stood right next to his mother the other day, and couldn't get him to come over.

Gose has been harder to get this AFL than Bryce Harper!

[freddiefreeman5]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

I like single signature baseballs better anyway.
The team signed balls look messy to me.

And the athletes charge what the public is willing to pay.
Are they greedy? Yes they are.
But the public could control the autograph prices.

[xpress34]

Re: Disappointed in Pujols...

Your comments appear to be based on a rumor tweeted by Darren Rovell, which was based on a rumor not attributed to a source. Rovell has since removed the tweet from his account and is currently backpeddling in response to criticism:

#darrenrovell
"For any1 who thinks I have issues attributing to original sources, I challenge you to go back through all my tweets." (November 6)

I've read posts from you in the past and you strike me as a bright guy. Too bright to put stock in 162-character rumors based on rumors.

If you've stated everything as your opinion, I take no issue with it. But if you're characterizing this as reported fact, I respectfully challenge you to support your statements with verifiable, original attribution.

I don't know if it was Darren Rovell's tweet or not. The source I heard it stated on was 'Intentional Talk' on MLB Network.

Again, to date, the are NO 'verifiable' WS Team Signed Balls available through the Cardinals Store (or auctions), MLB Store (or auctions), Steiner, Mounted Memories, etc.

The ONE ball that you posted a link too is a one shot AUCTION site offer that - if legitimate - was probably signed over the course of the WS. The ONE ball that I posted has questionable signatures at best.

Again, to date the story has proven true as usually, this far past the Final Game of the WS (over a week) - Team signed balls have been offered for sale through one of the sources listed above.

If you're a Pujols fan, good for you. I met him in 2002 while working for Nike and sent a good 4-5 hours with him in the store. He was very nice then. Over the years, I have watched him (from my perspective) become more and more jaded and bitter towards the fans. To my point - when he came back in 2003 we talked for a few minutes at the hotel (he remembered me from Nike), 2004 he kinda half assed a wave, 2005 after making his 1st WS appearance wouldn't even acknowledge me and since then it's been worse each year they have been here. I'm not asking him to be my buddy, just be more open to the fans.

Just my .02

- Smitty