Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

I live in Central NJ, which has a huge Cuban population (NJ has the 3rd largest concentration of Cubans behind Havana and Miami), plus I have a lot of family down in the Miami/Ft. Lauderadale area whom I visit often. I also have a great-uncle that left Cuba in the late 1950s, amist the violence from the war. He used to be very hardline about enforcing the embargo, but he has even said it's time to move on.

And while Raul is personally a lot more hardline than his brother, the guy has implemented a number of reforms in the past couple of years, mostly allowing people to open their own businesses and promoting more private sector jobs. Also, the Raul government has engaged the US government on some diplomatic agreements, which mainly deal with drug enforcement and immigration.

So you must be up near Union, NJ? I asked because your statement, "a good majority of the Cuban population hate Castro, but they hate the Miami Cuban Americans just as much" pretty much indicts a large portion of Cuban immigrants.

As for the so-called reforms, Communism will continue. I haven't checked lately but is the average Monthly income on the Island still around $25.00 - $30.00 per Month? With the Government's export of oil, sugar-cane and tobacco, that's pretty sad. Thankfully, residents have the black market to make extra income - that's unless they are caught and placed in jail and their home seized by the government. Immigration has also changed unless your are an "asset" to the government - if you are an asset, you had better build a raft because you're not going anywhere. Just a few "Positive" steps.

As stated, we'll be heading down to Miami next week - I am interested to see what the situation is down there. I'm pretty sure I won't be seeing a whole lot of Marlins memorabilia - but we'll see.

Jim

[Skizzick]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

Do you live near Miami or southern Florida? I ask because your statement that a good majority of the Cuban population hates the Miami Cuban Americans as much as Castro is quite a statement so I was just wondering how did you quantify that? As for the government control fading, Raul is harder on the Cuban people than Fidel was/is and the folks in-line to take over, are hard core Communists.

Jim

I live in Central NJ, which has a huge Cuban population (NJ has the 3rd largest concentration of Cubans behind Havana and Miami), plus I have a lot of family down in the Miami/Ft. Lauderadale area whom I visit often. I also have a great-uncle that left Cuba in the late 1950s, amist the violence from the war. He used to be very hardline about enforcing the embargo, but he has even said it's time to move on.

And while Raul is personally a lot more hardline than his brother, the guy has implemented a number of reforms in the past couple of years, mostly allowing people to open their own businesses and promoting more private sector jobs. Also, the Raul government has engaged the US government on some diplomatic agreements, which mainly deal with drug enforcement and immigration.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

I prefer to interact with people who were there, too. I also prefer to interact with people who ARE there. Get both sides of the story, and get a more authentic understanding for how it is in Cuba today. And if you want to know the truth, a good majority of the Cuban population hate Castro, but they hate the Miami Cuban Americans just as much.

But you're right, the black market is a good indication of how bad things can be there with government economical repression, but in the grand scheme of things, the black market is also a sign that government control over the population is fading.

Do you live near Miami or southern Florida? I ask because your statement that a good majority of the Cuban population hates the Miami Cuban Americans as much as Castro is quite a statement so I was just wondering how did you quantify that? As for the government control fading, Raul is harder on the Cuban people than Fidel was/is and the folks in-line to take over, are hard core Communists.

Jim

[Skizzick]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

I rarely read published articles because like American journalist, most articles are slanted to the writer's own personal and/or political views. I prefer to interact with people who were actually there and love hearing what they have to say.

I am glad you brought up the "black market" because it is a terrific example of how the Cuban people struggle on a daily basis under the repressive Cuban government and that is a small example of why the Cuban Americans are pissed at Guillen.

I'll be in the Miami area in 10 days and can't wait to listen to what the Cuban Americans have to say. NO books, NO literature and NO radio broadcasts - just one on one interpersonal communications.

Jim

I prefer to interact with people who were there, too. I also prefer to interact with people who ARE there. Get both sides of the story, and get a more authentic understanding for how it is in Cuba today. And if you want to know the truth, a good majority of the Cuban population hate Castro, but they hate the Miami Cuban Americans just as much.

But you're right, the black market is a good indication of how bad things can be there with government economical repression, but in the grand scheme of things, the black market is also a sign that government control over the population is fading.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

Why would I want to go to Cuba? To see the place where my uncle lived before he came to the US. To do a favor to the many Cuban refugees I know and get in contact with their families for them. To experience Cuban culture, and because I don't buy every piece of propaganda the Miami lobby throws at me. Listen, man, totally understand why Cuban Americans are mad, but like you said, this is a free country and I don't have to agree with them totally.

To your other point, every dollar does not go to support the Cuban government. Cuba has a huge black market where people have carved out independent industries for them. Instead of staying in a state-owned hotel, you can pay somebody to stay in their house. Instead of eating in a state-owned restaurant, you can eat at one of the hundred of privately owned (literally in-house) restaurants. You can order a private taxi, buy black-market crafts, and even go to a private doctor if you wanted to. While some of them are legalized and pay taxes, many are under the radar and don't give a dime to the state. Not to mention that the majority of Cubans receive remissions from family members in the US, and the Cuban government has no way of taxing that.

I rarely read published articles because like American journalist, most articles are slanted to the writer's own personal and/or political views. I prefer to interact with people who were actually there and love hearing what they have to say.

I am glad you brought up the "black market" because it is a terrific example of how the Cuban people struggle on a daily basis under the repressive Cuban government and that is a small example of why the Cuban Americans are pissed at Guillen.

I'll be in the Miami area in 10 days and can't wait to listen to what the Cuban Americans have to say. NO books, NO literature and NO radio broadcasts - just one on one interpersonal communications.

Jim

[Skizzick]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

Part of what you say is true but I don't understand why any American would want to travel to Cuba. Every dollar spent in that Country goes to SUPPORT the Castro regime. A final note, not all Cubans are free to leave the Country. If you provide some "benefit" to the Country (Doctor etc), you are NOT free to go. And unlike you, I do understand why Cubans Americans are unset at Guillen's statements.

Why would I want to go to Cuba? To see the place where my uncle lived before he came to the US. To do a favor to the many Cuban refugees I know and get in contact with their families for them. To experience Cuban culture, and because I don't buy every piece of propaganda the Miami lobby throws at me. Listen, man, totally understand why Cuban Americans are mad, but like you said, this is a free country and I don't have to agree with them totally.

To your other point, every dollar does not go to support the Cuban government. Cuba has a huge black market where people have carved out independent industries for them. Instead of staying in a state-owned hotel, you can pay somebody to stay in their house. Instead of eating in a state-owned restaurant, you can eat at one of the hundred of privately owned (literally in-house) restaurants. You can order a private taxi, buy black-market crafts, and even go to a private doctor if you wanted to. While some of them are legalized and pay taxes, many are under the radar and don't give a dime to the state. Not to mention that the majority of Cubans receive remissions from family members in the US, and the Cuban government has no way of taxing that.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

I have plenty of perspective on why people are mad with Guillen, I just don't agree with their anger. I traveled all over Cuba when I was there. In fact, I was in contact with a number of families outside of Havana whose relatives I know in the States. Some of whome came to the US on rafts and stolen speedboats. Believe me, I've talked to people who have friends and family that have been arrested or never heard from again. When I traveled to non-tourist areas, I was stopped countless times, had my bags searched, and the only thing that got me out of trouble was the fact that I was a foreigner. It isn't the rosy picture that you seem to think I paint it as, but it isn't the distopian wasteland that many Cuban Americans paint it as. There are a number of misconceptions that people have, largely told to them by the Miami lobby. Yes, there are many Cubans every year that try to leave by raft. No, the Cuban Navy does not shoot them. Cuba has an open policy that if you wanna leave, go. They'll provide no help or no rescue to those wanting to leave. Yes, it is a very cold policy, but the Cuban navy isn't shooting people out of the water as you suggest.

But really, most Cubans leave their country by plane. The US offers 20,000-30,000 migrant visas per year to Cubans. When you consider the population of Cuba, that is a huge number. Most Cubans in the US that have come over in the boat lift or afterward are not as militant as the first generation. But if you talk to many younger Cubans in the US, they all just want to go back, Castro or not (though preferrably not).

You should go to Cuba. So you can see how it really is, but for also how beautiful a place it is. Sure, the government sucks and is oppressive, but the people are still proud and really do with to have more contact with the US. Objectivity, man. So many people lack that perspective in the Cuban debate.

Part of what you say is true but I don't understand why any American would want to travel to Cuba. Every dollar spent in that Country goes to SUPPORT the Castro regime. A final note, not all Cubans are free to leave the Country. If you provide some "benefit" to the Country (Doctor etc), you are NOT free to go. And unlike you, I do understand why Cubans Americans are unset at Guillen's statements.

Next week we'll be heading down to Southern Florida. We had every intention on seeing a game at the new stadium. Instead, we'll meet some friends and spend our money in "Little Havana". Hey, this is America and unlike Cuban and and Guillen's native Venezuela, we are free to voice our opinions.

Jim

[coxfan]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

Thanks, Skizzick! I'll definitely read your professor's article soon. I've got a shelf-full of books on 19th century baseball, but this Cuban material was new to me.

The 1860's were critical in the development of modern baseball because the "New York game", with its basic rules of three outs per inning, foul territory, and symmetrical diamond was speading across the US. It supplanted other variants of bat-and-ball games then popular that varied on those particulars. Surprisingly, cricket was also quite popular in the US until the "New York game" crowded it out.

I've gone beyond the original thrust of this thread, but a synopsis of the evolution of 19th century baseball into our modern game might be worth a future thread in the "General Sports Discussion" section.

[Skizzick]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

Does anyone know when and how baseball became popular in Cuba?

A little-known historical fact: Before the Civil War, there was serious talk of the US annexing Cuba (by force?) and maing it a US territory. President Buchanon, who preceded Lincoln, advocated the annexation in at least one of his speeches that I've read. One of the speakers in the Georgia Legislature in 1860, when speaking about the future of slavery, said: " Few of us doubt that the US flag will soon fly over Cuba, and possibly Mexico and Central America as well."

All this talk ended with the Civil War and is rarely taught in today's history classes. But Cuba maintained many ties with the US before Castro. The chess World Champion in the 1920's, Jose Capablanca, was also an accomplished shortstop in Cuban baseball.

Cuba was actually a US protectorate after the War of Independence in 1895 (which later escalated into the Spanish American War). The US intervened in the conflict to help the Cubans defeat the Spanish, but rather than give Cubans independence, the US oversaw the government. In fact, for many years thereafter, the palace that once housed the Governors of Cuba (under Spain) became the US Embassy.

During the 1860s and before, Cuba was a docking station for the US Navy (like Guantanamo is today to some extent). The sailors introduced the game to the locals and it spread from there. The game actually became a symbol of the quest for independence from Spain, whose main sport at the time was bullfighting. My professor at UNC wrote a great article about this. Definitely worth a read:
www.utm.utoronto.ca/~w3his490/A-Perez-Baseball.Cuba.pdf

[coxfan]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

Does anyone know when and how baseball became popular in Cuba?

A little-known historical fact: Before the Civil War, there was serious talk of the US annexing Cuba (by force?) and maing it a US territory. President Buchanon, who preceded Lincoln, advocated the annexation in at least one of his speeches that I've read. One of the speakers in the Georgia Legislature in 1860, when speaking about the future of slavery, said: " Few of us doubt that the US flag will soon fly over Cuba, and possibly Mexico and Central America as well."

All this talk ended with the Civil War and is rarely taught in today's history classes. But Cuba maintained many ties with the US before Castro. The chess World Champion in the 1920's, Jose Capablanca, was also an accomplished shortstop in Cuban baseball.

[Skizzick]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

Lived in Havana for a semester? What's that, 3-4 Months? Hum, at the end of your semester, how did you get home? Did you get on a airplane? Here's a suggestion - why not head back to Cuba and try spending a little more time in county instead of controlled "Havana". Head out of town and perhaps you'll be stopped and checked by some members of the Policía Nacional Revolucionaria, PNR, - you can voice your objections that your 4th Amendment rights are being violated. If your not arrested or beaten, you can talk to some of the folks who have family members incarcerated for life because they tried to voice their "Freedom of Speech". Or folks that had their land taken away from them for the "good" of the Country. Or, family members that were forced into State sponsored prostitution.

Yes, a large majority of Cuban Americans came to this Country in 1980 (Mariel Boatlift) and since that time, the homemade raft is the vessel of choice. So, instead of taking a plane home, try making a home-made raft. If the Cuban Navy doesn't sink your raft or kill you, you just have to navigate the 90 miles of shark infested waters. By the way, if the wind and tide isn't right, we could be swept out to sea and never heard from again. If you are lucky enough to make landfall, you may have a different view on what the Cubans refugees went through to get here and perhaps then, you'll have a better idea as to why they are upset with Mr. Guillen's statements.

I've never been to Cuba nor do I ever wish to go there. I've been a vacationer and owner of property in Key West for the past 20 years and have met my fair share of Cuban refugees and we have shared Mojitos and cigars plenty of times. They are a terrific and proud people and for the ones that got here on the home-made rafts, they have more "b _ _ _ s than most Americans will ever have, especially those Americans who complain that, if its raining on election day, they don't want to vote because they might get wet.

It's about RESPECT !!!!!!!!!!

Just some thoughts - hope I didn't offend.

Jim

I have plenty of perspective on why people are mad with Guillen, I just don't agree with their anger. I traveled all over Cuba when I was there. In fact, I was in contact with a number of families outside of Havana whose relatives I know in the States. Some of whome came to the US on rafts and stolen speedboats. Believe me, I've talked to people who have friends and family that have been arrested or never heard from again. When I traveled to non-tourist areas, I was stopped countless times, had my bags searched, and the only thing that got me out of trouble was the fact that I was a foreigner. It isn't the rosy picture that you seem to think I paint it as, but it isn't the distopian wasteland that many Cuban Americans paint it as. There are a number of misconceptions that people have, largely told to them by the Miami lobby. Yes, there are many Cubans every year that try to leave by raft. No, the Cuban Navy does not shoot them. Cuba has an open policy that if you wanna leave, go. They'll provide no help or no rescue to those wanting to leave. Yes, it is a very cold policy, but the Cuban navy isn't shooting people out of the water as you suggest.

But really, most Cubans leave their country by plane. The US offers 20,000-30,000 migrant visas per year to Cubans. When you consider the population of Cuba, that is a huge number. Most Cubans in the US that have come over in the boat lift or afterward are not as militant as the first generation. But if you talk to many younger Cubans in the US, they all just want to go back, Castro or not (though preferrably not).

You should go to Cuba. So you can see how it really is, but for also how beautiful a place it is. Sure, the government sucks and is oppressive, but the people are still proud and really do with to have more contact with the US. Objectivity, man. So many people lack that perspective in the Cuban debate.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

I would LOVE to start a debate about this. Cuba is one of my favorite topics of discussion and I have studied it in great detail, and even lived in Havana for a semester.

First point: I saw nothing wrong with Guillen's comments, especially considering the man they come from. He said he respected Fidel Castro because people have tried to kill him and he's still here. He didn't say he loved Fidel Castro because he imprisons innocent people or because he is a dictator. I hoped he would have some cajones and stand by what he said, but it seems the Miami Cuban population can even silence Ozzie. If he was still the White Sox manager, or the manager of any other team outside of Miami, this would be a non-issue because people outside of the Miami metropolitan area are just not that enthused with Cuban issues.

Second point: Ozzie, a native Venezuelan, has time and again praised Hugo Chavez, even appearing on radio shows with him. MLB, the White Sox, and the media said nothing at the time. Meanwhile, Chavez is often (rightfully) compared to Castro for his human rights violations and his iron fist over his country

Third point: Does anybody else notice the double standard between Fidel Castro and Che Guevara? During the Cuban revolution and while he was in office Guevara committed a lot more atrocities than Fidel Castro, and even attempted armed rebellions in other countries as well. Yet, he is seen as a hero, adorning many t-shirts across the world while Fidel Castro, who is arguably a lot more moderate and reserved than a number of his companions, is branded as a villain and any mention of him in any sort of positive sense is met with scorn, hatred, fury, and calls for firing. Seriously, you could say something like, "Fidel Castro has good taste in cigars," and half of Miami would want you fired, tarred, and feathered. I'm not a fan of Fidel Castro myself (though his passion for baseball scores some points with me and a baseball signed by him is one of my holy grails). Still, you have to view the guy from an objective standpoint.

Fourth point (though slightly off-topic): The Miami Cuban American lobby has been one of the most detrimental lobbies for American foreign affairs. You have numerous politicians and experts on Cuba saying that open relations with Cuba would end the Castro regime quicker than the embargo and anti-Cuba rhetoric that exists today (and has for 50 years). If they had their way all the time, we would likely not have had any international baseball tournaments with both Cuban and US participation. Instead, the embargo has only propped the man up and kept him in power. If the US government didn't listen to the Cuban American lobby and engaged with the Cuban government, I contend that Fidel Castro would have been out of power decades ago.

Fifth point: THE FIRST FREAKIN' AMENDMENT! A guy can say what he wants to, as long as it's within the boundaries of his opinion.

Lived in Havana for a semester? What's that, 3-4 Months? Hum, at the end of your semester, how did you get home? Did you get on a airplane? Here's a suggestion - why not head back to Cuba and try spending a little more time in county instead of controlled "Havana". Head out of town and perhaps you'll be stopped and checked by some members of the Policía Nacional Revolucionaria, PNR, - you can voice your objections that your 4th Amendment rights are being violated. If your not arrested or beaten, you can talk to some of the folks who have family members incarcerated for life because they tried to voice their "Freedom of Speech". Or folks that had their land taken away from them for the "good" of the Country. Or, family members that were forced into State sponsored prostitution.

Yes, a large majority of Cuban Americans came to this Country in 1980 (Mariel Boatlift) and since that time, the homemade raft is the vessel of choice. So, instead of taking a plane home, try making a home-made raft. If the Cuban Navy doesn't sink your raft or kill you, you just have to navigate the 90 miles of shark infested waters. By the way, if the wind and tide isn't right, we could be swept out to sea and never heard from again. If you are lucky enough to make landfall, you may have a different view on what the Cubans refugees went through to get here and perhaps then, you'll have a better idea as to why they are upset with Mr. Guillen's statements.

I've never been to Cuba nor do I ever wish to go there. I've been a vacationer and owner of property in Key West for the past 20 years and have met my fair share of Cuban refugees and we have shared Mojitos and cigars plenty of times. They are a terrific and proud people and for the ones that got here on the home-made rafts, they have more "b _ _ _ s than most Americans will ever have, especially those Americans who complain that, if its raining on election day, they don't want to vote because they might get wet.

It's about RESPECT !!!!!!!!!!

Just some thoughts - hope I didn't offend.

Jim

[Skizzick]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

Guillen didn't just say these comments randomly in the interview, what was the question that the reporter asked him?

[coxfan]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

General comments about the media are right on target. I've had some dealings with the media in my long life, and I've learned:

1) Beware the reporter who smiles in an ingratiating way; he's just looking to gain your confidence so you'll "trust" him and say something stupid.

2) Don't trust the reporter not to "edit" what you say, supposedly for space. In fact, he may edit away most of your paragraph, thereby leaving a sentence out of its full context, and changing its meaning. But he'll swear you really said that, ignoring the fact that his editing changed the context and thus the meaning. And "editing" gives broad leeway to the reporter to express his own political views (whether left or right).

3) Beware the vengeful reporter, especially if you're a manager with frequent contact. Some of them will punish you if you don't give them enough "good" material.

In general, press conferences are safer than individual interviews. More witnesses are at the conference, making it harder for one reporter to distort and get away with it.

[EurekaDave]

Re: Ozzie Guillen in Trouble

Imagine what would happen if the manager of the Industriales of Havana said the same thing about Barack Obama. You'd never see him again.

That said, the media is culpable in all this. And I can say that because I am media. We get outrageous people to say outrageous things because they make news--ratings, sell papers, etc. Ignore them and -- curiously --they go away.

Ironic that the very people who champion free-speech (we the media) use it in such inconsequential ways.

Dave Silverbrand
das1721@att.net