David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

[NEFAN]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

If Pete Rose is banned for life, any juicer should be too.

[xpress34]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

Not a HOF'er. And 500 homers no longer "automatically" gets you in anymore, especially those who played in the steroid era or have been linked to PED usage.

Better bump that number up to 600 HR's.

The only current or recently retired player(s) in that group (660 HRs)that aren't tagged as a roid user are:

Ken Griffey Jr - 612
Jim Thome - 630

The others are all linked to roids:

Barry Bonds - 762
A Rod - 647
Sammy Sosa - 609

[R_Aaronson]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

Not a HOF'er. And 500 homers no longer "automatically" gets you in anymore, especially those who played in the steroid era or have been linked to PED usage.

Better bump that number up to 600 HR's.

[legaleagle92481]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

Not a Hall of Famer. Poor early career with Twins, DH status, low career stats compared to HOFers and Roid links.

[xpress34]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

I wanted to add Palmiero to this mix as well since his name did come up earlier as well:

Papi - 16 years and counting
Mac - 16 years
Raffy - 20 years

BA - Papi (.285) / Mac (.263) / Raffy (.288)
RBI - Papi (1326) / Mac (1414) / Raffy (1835)
Hits - Papi (1863) / Mac (1626) / Raffy (3020)
HR - Papi (401) / Mac (583) / Raffy (569)
OPS - Papi (.928) / Mac (.982) / Raffy (.885)
OBP - Papi (.380) / Mac (.394) / Raffy (.371)
SS - Papi (5) / Mac (3) / Raffy (2)
GG - Papi (0) / Mac (1) / Raffy (3)
AS - Papi (8) / Mac (12) / Raffy (4)

So playing 4 years longer than Mac and Papi (to this point) Raffy out did them in BA, RBI and Hits - and SS and GG for awards but never made a WS trip.

And as soon as he had the 3,000 RBI to go with his 500 HR, it was suspicious how quickly the news of his steroid use leaked - and he became a ghost.

Personally I don't think any of the three will ever make the Hall.

- Smitty

[xpress34]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

Am I the only one who remembers Ortiz saying "If I were ever caught using steroids, I'd quit baseball immediately." This was later followed up, after he was caught using steriods, by "I will not rest until I get to the bottom of how this could have happened."

This was followed by crickets. If he goes in the HOF, I sell my collection.

Ken

Ken -

I remember. I couldn't find the article to link that one, that is why I linked the 'Ban em for a year' comment article.

Papi is one of the biggest hypocrites out there when it comes to Steroids and that is why I did a comparison of him to Big Mac since Mac has about as many detractors as he does fans anymore.

If Papi gets into the HOF, then Mac definitely should e in the Hall as well.

- Smitty

[earlywynnfan]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

Am I the only one who remembers Ortiz saying "If I were ever caught using steroids, I'd quit baseball immediately." This was later followed up, after he was caught using steriods, by "I will not rest until I get to the bottom of how this could have happened."

This was followed by crickets. If he goes in the HOF, I sell my collection.

Ken

[yanks12025]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

Even if Ortiz didn't get caught for steroids, no way should he be in the hall of fame.

[gingi79]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

Couple of thoughts I had:

The HOF has deemed any player with 3000 hits and 500 HR's is inducted. Barring Papi suddenly has career highs in hits and puts up numbers like Ichiro circa 5 years ago for the next 6 seasons, he won't have the hits. Can he have 4 more seasons of 25-30 HR's? It's possible but not definite.

Sure there are guys without these 2 magic numbers but not from this generation. The two WS wins for Boston are, in my opinion, his greatest plus. The fact Steroids and a positive test for both him and Manny contributed to those titles are his biggest negative.

All Star Games to me are the least reputable statistic for a player's inclusion. The fans have proven year after year to vote for big names rather than big accomplishments. People notoriously want to vote for the winner rather than having interest in putting the best guy on the field.

In their prime, would you want Edgar or Papi as your DH? Edgar had less than 2200 hits and less than 310 HRs and that was with Griff, Tino, Buhner and a young ARod.

Frankly I don't think either should get elected but I think one day both will

[xpress34]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

I personally cannot stand him, but objectively all this to be taken into consideration.

PROS
*As of now he is an 8 time all star, being a 10 time all star would be hard to deny him the HOF, it is easier to be an all star now then 20 years ago, but still a very notable acomplishment - Big Mac (12x AS)
*Reputation as being a clutch hitter
*Two World Series Wins, both in Boston cannot hurt either - Big Mac (3 WS appearances w/ 1 win and 5 LCS appearances)
*5x silver slugger - Big Mac (3x SS and a GG)
*ALCS MVP (not a huge long term achievement, but still very notable) - Big Mac was ROY 1987 and Rookie HR record (49)
*99 Homeruns shy of 500 - Big Mac (583)
*He should get 2000+ hits (not even sure if Giambi will even have that many) - Big Mac (1626Hits) - Papi is currently at 1863.

CONS
*Steroids being a concern
*He is potentially one injury away from not being able to get to 500 homeruns, not getting 500 will not doubt hurt him somewhat.
*6 100+ RBI seasons is very very good, but he was not the consistent RBI machine that Manny Ramirez was, who will likely have 300+ more RBI than Ortiz and Manny will have to pay some dues before he gets in (Mac had 6 seasons of 100+ RBI)
*Won't be a .300 career hitter (Mac has a .263 lifetime BA)
*Good chance he doesn't get even to 2500 career hits. (Thome won't have 2500 hits either, but think he is a slightly safer HOF bet than Ortiz)
*VERY VERY Good OBP, but by the time he retires, likely will go down 10 points.
*Being a DH will hurt him in some way
*Was he ever the best player on his own team?

Also look a this overall value in these categories

Speed: Poor
Defense: Non factor
Hitting for average: Good to Very Good
Hitting for Power: Excellent
Longevity: Very Good
Misc: 2 RedSox World Series will be a very good plus for him

Think of this, even considering steroids into the mix, how much higher do you rank Ortiz over Rafael Palmeiro?

So Papi vs Mac - both 16 MLB Seasons:

BA - Papi (.285) / Mac (.263)
RBI - Papi (1326) / Mac (1414)
Hits - Papi (1863) / Mac (1626)
HR - Papi (401) / Mac (583)
OPS - Papi (.928) / Mac (.982)
OBP - Papi (.380) / Mac (.394)
SS - Papi (5) / Mac (3)
GG - Papi (0) / Mac (1)
AS - Papi (8) / Mac (12)

And Mac did that while FIELDING a Position too! So if Papi makes the Hall, Mac should too - overall over a 16 year season career head to head, Mac more than holds his own.

Imagine what McGwire could have done had he just been a DH? In fairness, Papi did play 257 games at 1B out of his 1832 games played... and Mac DID DH... in 27 of his 1791 games played.

Just trying to give a different perspective to this Big Papi HOF argument.

- Smitty

[xpress34]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

Absolutely not.

This is a guy who (and I quote), "Ban em for a whole year."

Ortiz wants season-long ban


Yet, he had already tested positive:

Ortiz says union told him of positive test

So he's a user and a hypocrite.

And before the comments start about his 'positive test' was before the new rules start rolling, I'll just say this:

If Big Mac (who actually played a position and was closing in on 600 HRs) is banned from the Hall because of his 'taking the 5th' and then subsequent admission to using, then there is no way you can let Big Papi slide in - regardless of whether he gets to 500 HRs or not.

Just my .02

- Smitty

[CampWest]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

I like Ortiz. I think he is a great player. I am fine with a DH getting in the HOF.

Nonetheless, while he is a very good player, I don't think I would vote for him.

I would probably vote for Edgar Martinez, probably overvaluing his batting average. Slight drop in Slug, but slightly higher OPS.

The tipping point of steroid usage keeps Ortiz out for me and gets Edgar Martinez in.

To me Papi is just short of the HOF. If he gets in, I wouldn't cry foul though.

[jake33]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

I personally cannot stand him, but objectively all this to be taken into consideration.

PROS
*As of now he is an 8 time all star, being a 10 time all star would be hard to deny him the HOF, it is easier to be an all star now then 20 years ago, but still a very notable acomplishment
*Reputation as being a clutch hitter
*Two World Series Wins, both in Boston cannot hurt either
*5x silver slugger
*ALCS MVP (not a huge long term achievement, but still very notable)
*99 Homeruns shy of 500
*He should get 2000+ hits (not even sure if Giambi will even have that many)

CONS
*Steroids being a concern
*He is potentially one injury away from not being able to get to 500 homeruns, not getting 500 will not doubt hurt him somewhat.
*6 100+ RBI seasons is very very good, but he was not the consistent RBI machine that Manny Ramirez was, who will likely have 300+ more RBI than Ortiz and Manny will have to pay some dues before he gets in
*Won't be a .300 career hitter
*Good chance he doesn't get even to 2500 career hits. (Thome won't have 2500 hits either, but think he is a slightly safer HOF bet than Ortiz)
*VERY VERY Good OBP, but by the time he retires, likely will go down 10 points.
*Being a DH will hurt him in some way
*Was he ever the best player on his own team?

Also look a this overall value in these categories

Speed: Poor
Defense: Non factor
Hitting for average: Good to Very Good
Hitting for Power: Excellent
Longevity: Very Good
Misc: 2 RedSox World Series will be a very good plus for him

Think of this, even considering steroids into the mix, how much higher do you rank Ortiz over Rafael Palmeiro?

[joelsabi]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

Understand what you're saying. I just don't think someone who plays part of the game should be a HOFer. Thanks!

With specialization as part of the game, i think there is a place for them whether its a DH or closer. Mariano Rivera contribution to a win is much more than some players who play the entire game.

Just by the HOF voting, closers get more respect than DHs. Martinez has been stuck at the 35% voting range the past three years.

[3arod13]

Re: David Ortiz Hallf of Fame bound??

So, no American League pitchers can get in?

I get your point, but I don't think you can limit to only offensive/defensive players. DH's are playing a position that is part of the game, they should be allowed in. If you put up outstanding numbers it shouldn't matter if you're a DH, pinch hitter, etc...

That said, I think Ortiz is borderline. I think if he gets in, it'll be due to '04 WS nostalgia, popularity and probably years after he's eligible.

Understand what you're saying. I just don't think someone who plays part of the game should be a HOFer. Thanks!