Innocent until proven guilty

[3arod13]

As we all know, it suppose to be "innocent until proven guilty." However, in today's society, it's seems more like it's always "guilty until proven innocent."

As I watched ESPN News this morning, John Kruk said without a doubt, Sammy Sosa is a sure Hall of Famer. He said it hasn't been proven that Sammy Sosa used steriods (although we all know he did, especially based on how he used an interpreter at the hearing and we all know why he did that), so there should be no asteriks next to Sosa's name.

O. J. Simpson - not proven guilty, but many believe he did it. Is he is jail...NO!

Many of us don't like cheaters. However, I do agree with Kruk that Sammy Sosa hasn't been found guilty of anything and until he is found guilty, you can't punish him or anyone else.

We all have mixed opinions about it and are all sick of talking about it.

Bottom line to me is, until proven guilty, he, McGwire, Palmerio, Bonds, etc. should not be punished for what we all believe. We all know many in the past, present, and most likely the future, will continue to cheat. There are proven cheaters in the Hall of Fame.

As an avid Juan Gonzalez collector for many years, once I knew he used steriods (yes, not proven but it my opinion, he did), I made the choice to no longer be a fan or collect of Juan Gonzalez.

Overall, it's a sad situation for all.

[JasonM33]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

I ask you this. You gave up being a fan of Juan but what makes you think Arod is clean? Even if he is, there's no way to prove that he's clean. How about Griffey? They are ALL tainted. To be fair you'd have to punish all of them or none of them. It's not really possible to punish all of them so in my opinion no one should be punished. Steroids are a problem that is too complex and far reaching to ever be fixed. You can only shrug and accept it. I think it's up to each individual to decide how they feel about it.

Unfortunately we are in a situation where the clueless sportswriters with their phony outrage have become the judge, jury and executioner. These sportswriters are human beings with their own opinions, biases and agendas. Inevitably, some players are going to be singled out and made and example of, while others are going to get a free pass. The question is who gets a free pass and what funky logic are they going to use to justify it.

-Jason M

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

I ask you this. You gave up being a fan of Juan but what makes you think Arod is clean? Even if he is, there's no way to prove that he's clean. How about Griffey? They are ALL tainted. To be fair you'd have to punish all of them or none of them. It's not really possible to punish all of them so in my opinion no one should be punished. Steroids are a problem that is too complex and far reaching to ever be fixed. You can only shrug and accept it. I think it's up to each individual to decide how they feel about it.

Unfortunately we are in a situation where the clueless sportswriters with their phony outrage have become the judge, jury and executioner. These sportswriters are human beings with their own opinions, biases and agendas. Inevitably, some players are going to be singled out and made and example of, while others are going to get a free pass. The question is who gets a free pass and what funky logic are they going to use to justify it.

-Jason M

Jason, if you read my comments, I agree with you. I stated, "innocent until proven guilty." The only player we know for a fact that used steriods it JOSE CANSECO. That's only because he admitted it.

As far as Juan Gonzalez is concerned, he's also innocent until proven guilty. However, me no longer being a fan or collector of Juan Gonzalez...that is my personal choice. I no longer have any respect for him as a player. Again, that's my personal choice. If he was inducted into the Hall of Fame, then so be it. Again, he's innocent until proven guilty.

Players have been doing and taking things to enhance their ability for years. Pitchers scuffing up/greasing baseball to cheat...on and on and on.

I still say, "innocent until proven guilty." Punishing or convicting someone based on what we believe, it ridiculous!!

Tony

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

I ask you this. You gave up being a fan of Juan but what makes you think Arod is clean? Jason M

Nothing has come out about Arod not being clean. JOSE CANSECO admitted that he helped Juan Gonzalez with steroids. I watched Juan Gonzalez over the years, and even before he was mentioned/connected with steriods, I believed he was doing/taking something.

By me no longer being a fan or collector of Juan Gonzalez because of allegations of his steroid use, does this mean I believe he's guilty...YES. Again, that's my personal opinion/choice. By me choosing to do this, this doesn't stop him from going into the hall of fame...suspend him from baseball...etc.

This isn't new to sports. Players have been taking things for years to enhance their ability.

[JasonM33]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Hey bro,

Please don't missunderstand me. I do agree with you 100%. I just wanted to make a few points to illustrate that a degree of hipocrisy is built-in to this scandal and it's only going to get worse. You re right though, it should be innocent until proven guilty. So, who has been proven guilty so far. Bonds supposedly talked to the grand jury. Giambi, Palmero. These are the only guys I can think of. Oh yeah, didn't Sosa get busted with a corked bat? He he he. So, that begs the question. How many of his 600 homers were hit with a corked bat? What a joke.

-Jason M

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Hey bro,

Please don't missunderstand me. I do agree with you 100%. I just wanted to make a few points to illustrate that a degree of hipocrisy is built-in to this scandal and it's only going to get worse. You re right though, it should be innocent until proven guilty. So, who has been proven guilty so far. Bonds supposedly talked to the grand jury. Giambi, Palmero. These are the only guys I can think of. Oh yeah, didn't Sosa get busted with a corked bat? He he he. So, that begs the question. How many of his 600 homers were hit with a corked bat? What a joke.

-Jason M

Jason, we are both on the same page. Appreciate your comments.

Tony

[staindsox]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

There are different ways of being "guilty." Anyone who read the SF Chronicle book or the Pearlman book on Bonds knows he's guilty. Proving someone guilty in a court of law...especially when people go to jail to protect you, isn't as easy as knowing someone is guilty. Bonds without a doubt is a user and there is more than enough proof to know this. Before Selig, a commissioner may have banned Bonds, just like Rose or Joe Jackson.

Sosa is a different case. His name hasn't been connected to anything. I think he used, but nobody has ever said that he has. There is more proof that Clemens has than Sosa. I don't think you can keep him out, whereas you could with Giambi, McGwire, Bonds, Sheffield, Tejada, Palmeiro...even Clemens.

***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***

BASEBALL IS NOT A COURT OF LAW. THE 1919 SOX WERE EVEN FOUND INNOCENT IN A COURT OF LAW, BUT EVERY SINGLE ONE, REGARDLESS OF HOW "GUILTY," WERE KICKED OUT OF THE GAME. NOT JUST KEPT OUT OF A "HALL OF FAME," BUT EXPELLED FROM THE GAME, THEIR LIVELIHOOD TAKEN FROM THEM. BASEBALL CAN DO WHATEVER IT LIKES, IT ANSWERS TO NOONE.

Selig could kick Barry out tomorrow if he were a "real" commissioner and not a puppet for the owners (yes, he is an owner and he always held their best interests in mind, not the game's). Remember even Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were permanently banned from the game at one point? Baseball has always had its own rules and has never had to prove its case in making any decision.

Chris

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

[quote=staindsox;43705]There are different ways of being "guilty." Anyone who read the SF Chronicle book or the Pearlman book on Bonds knows he's guilty. Proving someone guilty in a court of law...especially when people go to jail to protect you, isn't as easy as knowing someone is guilty. Bonds without a doubt is a user and there is more than enough proof to know this. Before Selig, a commissioner may have banned Bonds, just like Rose or Joe Jackson.

Sosa is a different case. His name hasn't been connected to anything. I think he used, but nobody has ever said that he has. There is more proof that Clemens has than Sosa. I don't think you can keep him out, whereas you could with Giambi, McGwire, Bonds, Sheffield, Tejada, Palmeiro...even Clemens.

***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***MAIN POINT***

BASEBALL IS NOT A COURT OF LAW. THE 1919 SOX WERE EVEN FOUND INNOCENT IN A COURT OF LAW, BUT EVERY SINGLE ONE, REGARDLESS OF HOW "GUILTY," WERE KICKED OUT OF THE GAME. NOT JUST KEPT OUT OF A "HALL OF FAME," BUT EXPELLED FROM THE GAME, THEIR LIVELIHOOD TAKEN FROM THEM. BASEBALL CAN DO WHATEVER IT LIKES, IT ANSWERS TO NOONE.

Selig could kick Barry out tomorrow if he were a "real" commissioner and not a puppet for the owners (yes, he is an owner and he always held their best interests in mind, not the game's). Remember even Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were permanently banned from the game at one point? Baseball has always had its own rules and has never had to prove its case in making any decision.

Chris, well said. Thanks for the comments!

On another note. The big deal about Arod and the blonde. Has anything been proven he was doing anything wrong? Although that should be between him and his wife, and nobody else.

I was suprised that a company terminated their contract with him based on the media. I find that ridiculous also. Speculation he was doing something wrong, not factual. Did anyone hear any updates on Arod and the blonde?

Tony/quote]

[bigtime59]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

However talented a player he may be, Pay-Rod is an extremely insecure, tone-deaf doofus with a taste for East German strippers...and he plays for the Yankee$. There is enough of his stuff out there, to make you believe that quite a bit of it is "questionable", yet it remains extremely expensive.
Collecting his stuff isn't even on my radar screen. It's bad enough to get burned on a Dale Sveum Diamondbacks jersey for $300. Getting burned on a Pay-Rod jersey for $3000, well, that's a kettle of fish I don't care to sample.

Mark
bigtime39@aol.com

[cjclong]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

The only thing I know about "ARod and the blonde" is that ARod's wife, who people took great joy in reporting was packing her bags to leave him, was actually going to meet him in Boston and there were pitures of them there together. The steroid question on this thread is a legitimate question for baseball and everyone will have different opinions. Why people would take delight in hoping a player's marrigage would break up is beyond me.

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

However talented a player he may be, Pay-Rod is an extremely insecure, tone-deaf doofus with a taste for East German strippers...and he plays for the Yankee$. There is enough of his stuff out there, to make you believe that quite a bit of it is "questionable", yet it remains extremely expensive.
Collecting his stuff isn't even on my radar screen. It's bad enough to get burned on a Dale Sveum Diamondbacks jersey for $300. Getting burned on a Pay-Rod jersey for $3000, well, that's a kettle of fish I don't care to sample.

Mark
bigtime39@aol.com

Ouch! Although I do agree there is just way too much arod stuff out there, and much of it I wouldn't buy either, I am happy to say I have a solid Arod HR bat! Letter's from Arod, PSA, SCD, and Rawlings.

I've learn so much in this forum. Since being apart of this forum, I have learned just how much stuff arod does sign as "game used" when it wasn't. Sad for the hobby...sad for the collecor!

Great comments by all! Tony

[Canseco44]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

I think people should also be aware that just because a player doesn't change into the size that Canseco did doesn't mean he isn't taking an enhancer of some kind. There are many different kinds of steroids including mass builders, toners, and some that can help with stamina. I heard Dick Butkus state that one of the largest group of users is teenage girls. He stated this on an episode of American Chopper. They use it to build definition and to lose weight. My point is, usually the only players we go after are the obvious ones who add 40 pounds of muscle over the off season. One person I that comes to mind is Clemens. How can a guy that old still pitch like that? Lets not just look at the body builder type like Canseco and Bonds. If I had to pick one person who was accused in Cansecos book that he was lying about it would have been Palmero. Now look at him. I think we should just watch a Steroid free sport like pro football.

Todd

[cjclong]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Many players today take better care of themselves and thus are able to play longer. Most player's careers used to be over in their mid 30's. They didn't work out in the off season and caroused even during the season. Mickey Mantle is one who said he wished he had taken care of himself when he was younger so he could have had a longer and better career. The question was asked "how can Clemons pitch like that at his age? "The assumption being he must take steroids. Of course Nolan Ryan was doing the same thing at close to the same age until he hurt his arm. One thing both Ryan and Clemons had in common was that they trained hard as well as having natural genetic advantages. And years ago people were asking how Warren Spahn could pile up the wins and innings "at his age."I never heard anyone accuse Spahn of using steroids or Ryan either. This business of saying some players took steroids so everyone must presumed quilty or "tainted" is as silly as saying some people comit murders so every person in this country must be prsumed to be guilty of murder or "tainted" by the number of murders we have. Do I know Clemons or anyone else didn't take steroids for a fact. No. But I also don't know for a fact that every adult I know hasn't murdered someone.

[3arod13]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

As proven by the many different threads over the past year about this topic, we can all agree that we need to put the past behind and now be concerned about today and in the future.

This has been going on for a long time. We all agree that natural ability is what we want to see. Then, the numbers and performance mean so much more.

Myself, I would like to see the steriods issue put behind us and let's move on. I'm sure if we dig deeper and deeper into many other areas, we can easily find out more than we even thought of.

I love baseball. I just want to see these type things get better so we can talk about the positive things in baseball, vice whose cheating on their wifes, getting in touble in their off time, etc.

Let's pay ball!!

[mwbosoxfan]

Re: Innocent until proven guilty

Speaking of Roger Clemens....Does anyone collect Clemens game used hats? There has been much discussion about Bond's head size and shoe size increasing through his alleged PED usage. Photos would tend to support this. What about Clemens? As shown in early Sox photos, he is a mere stick compared to now. His head also looks significantly larger now. I've never heard any discussion about Roger's head size, so I was wondering if anyone might have different hats through the years.