Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

[aeneas01]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

Perhaps a US history class or two might clear things up?

if you are aware of a u.s. history lesson that might help me better understand the type of "sport" hunting i specifically mentioned (blasting varmint with shotguns for the pure fun of it, bashing the brains out of a 20-year-old marlin with a baseball bat, amateurs boning up on archery skills with live game), please point the way. if your intended point was to make it clear that there are experienced and responsible hunters in this country that are sensitive to animal suffering, i'm pretty sure most realize this. i know i do - and that's why i didn't refer to such hunters in my post.

Making an analogy between what Vick did and a person who enjoys hunting I feel is irresponsible.

is that really what you took from my post? that i've stated there's no difference between what vick was convicted of and responsible hunting?

I know it is difficult for us internet surfers, Direct TV watchers, and cell phone users to fathom, but there hasn't always been a McDonald's or KFC on every American street corner. 10 gallon hat? I guess that's the only community we're allowed to stereotype anymore and still be PC.

seems that you're trying to defend what you believe was a gross stereotype with one of your own (mind numb electronic agers dependent on the convenience of fast food). the thing is, mentioning a "10 gallon hat" in the context of rodeo attendees isn't a gross or hurtful stereotype as far as i know...



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[sportscentury]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

Reid, you and Vintage are both correct. The "certain individuals" you refer to who feel it necessary to post aimlessly on nearly every topic and manage to bring it down into the gutter with personal attacks? Even though they're clueless? You would swear they never leave their pc's. Until the moderators and administrators begin to take enforcement action, other than merely deleting these ignorant posts, the madness will continue. You learn how to navigate around it after awhile.

Actually, Dan, I think you nailed it (see section in bold). If folks were better at navigating around it (myself included), I think it would quickly become less of a problem.

Just to be clear, I was not specifically refering to Joel/Trsent in my post. I know he is not a tremendously popular fellow here on GUU, but I do appreciate his posts that inform members of behind-the-scenes ongoings in the hobby. He does know quite a bit, but I think his good info gets lost in his posting style (and also the fact that he responds too much to those who bait him, which I realize is hard to resist doing). Just wanted to make this clear as Joel has not posted the last couple of days and I don't want anyone to think that my post was directed at him.

Thanks for your post, Dan. I'm glad to see you posting on GUU more regularly.

.

[Danny899]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

Not to me. The idiocy and visciousness has seriously detracted from this thread's value. I'm of the mindset that GUU would be better off without certain individuals.

Reid, you and Vintage are both correct. The "certain individuals" you refer to who feel it necessary to post aimlessly on nearly every topic and manage to bring it down into the gutter with personal attacks? Even though they're clueless? You would swear they never leave their pc's. Until the moderators and administrators begin to take enforcement action, other than merely deleting these ignorant posts, the madness will continue. You learn how to navigate around it after awhile.

[nyjetsfan14]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

imo they were simply products of a hunting culture that i will never understand.

Perhaps a US history class or two might clear things up? I know it is difficult for us internet surfers, Direct TV watchers, and cell phone users to fathom, but there hasn't always been a McDonald's or KFC on every American street corner. 10 gallon hat? I guess that's the only community we're allowed to stereotype anymore and still be PC.

I am not a hunter but I do on occasion fish with my son and - GASP - we sometimes use worms as bait! Don't worry, we rarely if ever catch any fish. Many/most hunters I have known have a high level of respect for animals and nature and hunting organizations do much for conservation. What's more cruel: hunting a deer or putting a Starbucks where a deer family once lived? Making an analogy between what Vick did and a person who enjoys hunting I feel is irresponsible.

Vick made a mistake. We all make mistakes. Hopefully we don't make them in such a way as to harm others but it does happen. Vick did his time and we can only hope he has grown and learned from the punishment, he deserves the right to prove that. Otherwise what is the point of our system?

[sportscentury]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

I can't decide which I enjoy more:

the posted topic and the ensuing debates or the idiotic responses and personal attacks. Both are entertaining in a "can't look away from the train wreck" sort of way.

Not to me. The idiocy and visciousness has seriously detracted from this thread's value. I'm of the mindset that GUU would be better off without certain individuals.

[aeneas01]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

re: vick making millions after-the-fact i agree. it's also the ease of his re-integration into his old life as compared to other felons. it seems he's going to have a much easier time of it than anyone else with a a felony and jail time on their record would. chalk it up to the lax moral standards of the NFL.

i'm not sure how offering another chance to an ex-con equates to lax moral standards. isn't it more a reflection of the league's willingness to allow some of these guys a shot at turning their lives around, a stab at a mutually beneficial proposition? some guys are beyond redemption, some aren't. and, yes, it seems almost certain vick will have a much easier go of it when it comes to settling back into his life when compared to other ex-felons. but let's face it, vick isn't your average ex-con. nor is he your average joe. he's a guy that may still possess a very rare skill that it's in very high demand. and whether we like it or not, that will always open doors.

re: the "culture" argument. i've never bought it in any capacity in this case. unlike bullfighting in spain, dogfighting isn't part of the accepted culture of the south. the laws of a region reflect the majority of the cultural values of people who live in that region. the state of virginia, as well as many other southern states, has made dogfighting a felony. virginia has declared it a misdemeanor to even be a spectator at a dogfight. unlike the bullfights you saw robert, this wasn't an entire region going to some sanctioned public spectacle. it was a clandestine group of thugs holding fights in secret because they knew they were breaking the law. hardly qualifies as a "cultural event" in the vein of a bullfight in mexico. by making it illegal, the good people of the state of virginia have explicitly and publically declared they don't want dogfighting to be a part of their culture.

dog fighting wasn't a felony in virginia prior to this millenium rolling around nor was it a felony in wyoming or idaho as of 2007. in fact most states didn't get around to getting tough on dog fighting until the 1980s. even the feds didn't get very involved, didn't really put their foot down, until very recently. add to this, attending a dog fight is currently nothing more than a misdemeanor in over half the states in this country.

today anyone in this country can plop down cash, charter a boat, and set out to land a blue marlin. once this magnificent fish is hooked, the fun really begins because you then get to drag it around for hours while it violently struggles for its life, feeling every spasm and desperate lurch through your 130lb amilon line. then comes the gaffing and baseball bat. the fish turns black, the spectacular rainbow colors disappear, because the circulating blood responsible for those colors has stopped.

today anyone can don a 10 gallon hat and mosey on down to their local rodeo scene. they can cheer with glee along with thousands of others as a young calf is clotheslined off it's feet while running at breakneck speed, noosed and hog-tied. then comes the steer tripping, horns roped as the steer is in full sprint, head snapped back and pulled in another direction to cause the steer to trip and fall hard, to stun, then dragged by its head, to further stun, so that it can be hog-tied. and of course there's always the relentless and severe spurring of bronco horses and the electrical prods.

today anyone can take a drive down to their local walmart and pick up a compound bow. anyone. not just expert archers (as if an expert archer would purchase his bow at walmart!). anyone. and off to the woods they go. to miss the kill shot and have their quarry disappear and slowly bleed to death.

my point is indifference to animal cruelty and suffering, especially in the name of "sport", is nothing new - it's always been a part of the american landscape, part of the american culture. and such barbarism doesn't have to be accepted by the majority to qualify as a cultural phenomena. nor does it even have to be legal.

as i mentioned before, i'm with you when it comes to how i feel about dog fighting. what vick engaged in was reprehensible. but let's be clear. vick didn't go down to the local pound, adopt a slew of dogs, only to douse them in gasoline and set them on fire for his own perverted, twisted, psychotic amusement. vick chose to engage in a brand of animal cruelty that's been around forever, a blood sport, which at the moment also happens to be big in the urban gangster culture. just as packing a gun. thuggery. not twisted criminal insanity imo.

where would the cultural excuses stop? anything could be viewed as a type of culture that one could grow up around. noone would be a sociopath, they'd all just be participating in their "culture". even the manson girls could've pointed to some sort of subculture. hardly means they weren't completely demented.

first, i don't think anyone is pointing to a cultural influence as an excuse. i know i'm not. a symptom yes, an excuse no. i think it's pretty clear that vick, like a lot of young black athletes, is all about the gangster image, the gangster culture. as far as charlie's girls are concerned, i'm not sure there's ever been a sharon tate style murder movement, or culture, that one could point to. do you?

point blank, if a person relishes watching innocent animals being tortured and then personally kills those that "under-perform", there is no culture card that can possibly absolve them from being a sick and twisted person. saying "but i'm from the south!" doesn't negate the expectation of being a decent human being.

when i was a stupid college freshman i decided to go hare shooting with a group of guys that lived in my dorm, guys that grew up with guns, that grew up hunting. i was given a twelve gauge shotgun, the same as what the other guys were armed with, and we were off. up to that point i had shot a bb gun a few times, and a rifle once - i didn't grow up in a hunting family and never had any interest in it whatsoever. but for whatever reason it sounded like a good idea at the time. at dusk the hares, considered varmint, popped out of their holes and were everywhere. it was quite an amazing site, i mean they were absolutely everywhere. knowing that i was new to this, a couple of the guys played instructor and i was ready to go. i hit a hare with my first shot and two of it's legs disappeared. but it was still alive and struggled to escape. but the best it could manage was run in a small circle. and scream. the group of guys i was with thought it was the funniest thing they had ever seen, and they laughed hysterically as the hare squealed in pain. i threw up. and have never touched a gun since.

through the years i've met many, many guys like them, guys that grew up with guns, grew up shooting animals for sport, that had zero, and i mean zero, remorse about doing it. i didn't then, nor do i now, consider them sick and/or twisted. imo they were simply products of a hunting culture that i will never understand.

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Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

I can't decide which I enjoy more:

the posted topic and the ensuing debates or the idiotic responses and personal attacks. Both are entertaining in a "can't look away from the train wreck" sort of way.

Indeed.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

aeneas01,

Nice posting. Sad story. You hit a cord in me with it. I remember watching a bull fight or two on TV when I was about the same age as when you were subjected to that cultural sleighing.

To this day, I guess it's the "cultural difference" in me that feels an uncontrollable amount of joy when I read or hear that a bull in a bull fight gored the fighter. I instantly think how I'd like to hear the horn went all the way through, and one of his major organs would be speared out on the end of it for all to see.

But that's just hoping against hope. Not because it wouldn't happen, but because I understand there is nothing that will change the very point you so poignantly expressed, that being there are deeply rooted differences from one culture to another.

But here in the great U.S. of A., we have a bunch of different cultures that must live by the law of the land. Seeing someone partake in such sick and immoral practices take a heavy toll on one's "rep". Vick is in for a tough climb. I don't know if he's up for it.

And the point you make about the money IS the rub. It's disgusting to see someone who was so privilaged and talented to snub his nose at our laws, at the decency of treating defenseless animals so horribly, to display such horrific character.....and then to hear fans of the sport of football just blurt out "He's done his time, doesn't he deserve a second chance!??"

Culturally speaking.....it's one thing to bet on your baseball team and pay the ultimate price in your sport when you were one of the all-time greats in it.....it's a whole other when you find NO VALUE in living creatures we share our lives with, and destroy them for sport.

It's just another sad day in the world when we as a global culture can't see that, and instead feel the need to publicly express our views that "the guy did his time, so he deserves another chance". OK, whatever....I too won't lose any sleep over the outcome. But I will always be outraged for what Vick did.

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

I can't decide which I enjoy more:

the posted topic and the ensuing debates or the idiotic responses and personal attacks. Both are entertaining in a "can't look away from the train wreck" sort of way.

[dirtyla2000]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

robert,

re: vick making millions after-the-fact
i agree. it's also the ease of his re-integration into his old life as compared to other felons. it seems he's going to have a much easier time of it than anyone else with a a felony and jail time on their record would. chalk it up to the lax moral standards of the NFL.

re: the "culture" argument.
i've never bought it in any capacity in this case. unlike bullfighting in spain, dogfighting isn't part of the accepted culture of the south. the laws of a region reflect the majority of the cultural values of people who live in that region. the state of virginia, as well as many other southern states, has made dogfighting a felony. virginia has declared it a misdemeanor to even be a spectator at a dogfight. unlike the bullfights you saw robert, this wasn't an entire region going to some sanctioned public spectacle. it was a clandestine group of thugs holding fights in secret because they knew they were breaking the law. hardly qualifies as a "cultural event" in the vein of a bullfight in mexico. by making it illegal, the good people of the state of virginia have explicitly and publically declared they don't want dogfighting to be a part of their culture.

beyond that, there've been morally reprehensible cultures/subcultures before and playing the culture card hasn't absolved them from being regarded as demented sociopaths. lynchings were a part of southern culture in the early 1900s. were the folks who participated in those depraved lunatics or just some guys trying to hold up their culture? it's little more than a glorified "if everyone's jumping off the bridge then i should do it too" mindset. could millions of mexicans be wrong? millions of germans were so it's certainly possible. a man ought to be able to think for himself even if everyone around him has lost their mind.

where would the cultural excuses stop? anything could be viewed as a type of culture that one could grow up around. noone would be a sociopath, they'd all just be participating in their "culture". even the manson girls could've pointed to some sort of subculture. hardly means they weren't completely demented.

point blank, if a person relishes watching innocent animals being tortured and then personally kills those that "under-perform", there is no culture card that can possibly absolve them from being a sick and twisted person. saying "but i'm from the south!" doesn't negate the expectation of being a decent human being.

chakes: didn't realize you had broken it down via "types" of dogs. my mistake. not sure what types of dogs aren't an integral part of human society and as such don't deserve the same respect. i'll assume you were clearly referring to hyenas or maybe dingos.

rudy.

using the holocaust as an example to make your dogs are priceless point!this thread was about second chances not your trivilizations of historic tragedies!

[kingjammy24]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

robert,

re: vick making millions after-the-fact
i agree. it's also the ease of his re-integration into his old life as compared to other felons. it seems he's going to have a much easier time of it than anyone else with a a felony and jail time on their record would. chalk it up to the lax moral standards of the NFL.

re: the "culture" argument.
i've never bought it in any capacity in this case. unlike bullfighting in spain, dogfighting isn't part of the accepted culture of the south. the laws of a region reflect the majority of the cultural values of people who live in that region. the state of virginia, as well as many other southern states, has made dogfighting a felony. virginia has declared it a misdemeanor to even be a spectator at a dogfight. unlike the bullfights you saw robert, this wasn't an entire region going to some sanctioned public spectacle. it was a clandestine group of thugs holding fights in secret because they knew they were breaking the law. hardly qualifies as a "cultural event" in the vein of a bullfight in mexico. by making it illegal, the good people of the state of virginia have explicitly and publically declared they don't want dogfighting to be a part of their culture.

beyond that, there've been morally reprehensible cultures/subcultures before and playing the culture card hasn't absolved them from being regarded as demented sociopaths. lynchings were a part of southern culture in the early 1900s. were the folks who participated in those depraved lunatics or just some guys trying to hold up their culture? it's little more than a glorified "if everyone's jumping off the bridge then i should do it too" mindset. could millions of mexicans be wrong? millions of germans were so it's certainly possible. a man ought to be able to think for himself even if everyone around him has lost their mind.

where would the cultural excuses stop? anything could be viewed as a type of culture that one could grow up around. noone would be a sociopath, they'd all just be participating in their "culture". even the manson girls could've pointed to some sort of subculture. hardly means they weren't completely demented.

point blank, if a person relishes watching innocent animals being tortured and then personally kills those that "under-perform", there is no culture card that can possibly absolve them from being a sick and twisted person. saying "but i'm from the south!" doesn't negate the expectation of being a decent human being.

chakes: didn't realize you had broken it down via "types" of dogs. my mistake. not sure what types of dogs aren't an integral part of human society and as such don't deserve the same respect. i'll assume you were clearly referring to hyenas or maybe dingos.

rudy.

[reed1216]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

suicide_squeeze- I really appreciate your response to my post. While I disagree with your opinion on some of the things you mention, I think it's appropriate to agree to disagree without any hard feelings.

aeneas01- I couldn't agree more with what you have written. That was a VERY well written post!

[aeneas01]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

Vick knowingly committed and crime and went to prison as he should have. Too many kids idolize football players and prison. The 2 should never meet. Vick should be banished from the NFL to set an example for everyone.

frankly, i thought an excellent example was already made of vick and a resounding message sent: if you break the law, you can and will go to prison, you can and will do time - regardless of your wealth, fame, popularity or profession. in fact i think the message was not only powerful but also far-reaching, especially where kids are concerned.

re: does vick deserve a second chance to play pro football? imo, sure he does. but what makes this question intriguing is the amount of money vick stands to earn should he get a second chance. i mean would we be having this discussion if the guy happened to stock shelves at walmart for a living? would anyone care in the least if a walmart in buffalo hired him back after he completed his stretch? i doubt it. he would be just another ex-con trying to get on with his life.

but the fact that vick stands to earn millions should he get another chance to play pro ball throws a wrench into the conversation - a thug commits a despicable crime yet at the end of the day emerges smelling like roses and is financially set for life. tough to swallow, doesn't square, justice doesn't seem to prevail. the nfl and/or nfl franchises will ultimately determine vick's fate and that's fine with me, regardless of what road they take. if vick is allowed to play, i will not boycott pro football - thugs will continue to make up a percentage of nfl players with or without vick, something i've grudgingly learned to accept. if vick is not allowed to play, i won't pop the champagne - i'll just chalk it up as yet another sad nfl story of wasted opportunity and talent.

as far as dog fighting is concerned, like most here i find it despicable and reprehensible. and criminal. nonetheless i can't dismiss those that engage in it as depraved, psychotic, future serial killers, etc... the sad and bleak reality is this world, this country even, has simply not progressed morally or culturally at the same pace. i lived outside of the u.s. for over a decade and the abhorrent treatment of animals i witnessed first hand was not the exception, but the rule. and it wasn't at the hands of the criminally insane that these animals suffered.

when i was 12-years-old, living in mexico city, i attended a bullfight. the packed arena filled with the well-heeled and the barefoot did not prepare me for what i saw. an utterly gruesome spectacle that redefined animal torture. before the matador even began, the picadores, on horseback, went to work on the bull's neck with heavy steel spears - the object was to weaken the bull's neck muscles to the point where it could no longer thrust its head/horns effectively. next up, for good measure, entered the bandilleros whose job it was to stab and secure heavy barbed steel posts in the bull's exposed neck muscles. these heavy posts served as perpetual weight that continued to pull at the bull's neck muscles throughout the ordeal, further weakening the bull, its capacity to swing its head, causing intentional albeit controlled loss of blood. all to the utter delight of tens of thousands cheering fans. then and only then did the matodor show his face. to finally slay the bull with a sword. the grand finale? the bloodied and murdered bull was dragged around the arena by horseback rider, and the matador re-entered the ring with the bull's freshly severed ears and tail which he raised to the delirious and adoring crowd. the spectacle is then repeated all over again with a new bull. a spectacle that's alive and well in mexico, spain, france, to name a few.

i'm a dog guy. my dogs have not been pets, they've been important family members. what vick was involved with was horrific. but imo it was an act of a culturally and morally stunted man, an uneducated man, not an act of a depraved sociopath or the criminally insane. he was found guilty and did his time. jmo.

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[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

suicide_squeeze- First, I want to apologize if you misinterpreted my post as an attack on you. However, to suggest that I am arguing with myself is kind of silly...

I think what I am hearing you say is that dogs should be treated better than human beings because we're capable of doing so. If I'm misinterpreting this, please correct me. If I have it right, I totally disagree. I love dogs, but to say they should be treated better than people treat one another is an interesting statement. I like to think I treat everyone with decency and respect. Maybe, as a community, we should work harder on treating one another better and let the dogs follow...

The reason I quoted a portion of your post is because I disagree with THAT portion of your post. I think we can agree to disagree without suggesting I need professional help. Is that too much to ask?

As for dirtyla and you comparing his statements to mine... I think the only area of agreement I have with him is that we both believe Vick deserves another chance. I don't support the way he (or you for that matter) have been throwing your opinions around, while at the same time ridiculing others who might dare to disagree with you.

I think that we do agree that dogs and all pets deserve to be taken care of properly and given the love they need to be happy animals. I'd just like to think we could have a discussion without getting personal. While I might think some of your views are askew, I imagine others feel the same way with mine. That's okay with me. I'd rather approach those people, say hello and discuss the matter with them, than "WASTE" them.

Have a wonderful holiday weekend...

reed1216,

Thanks for the apology, and accept mine too.

Like I have said many times here before, I am not here to make enemies.

I do, however, become baffled when members misconstru comments and/or twist them into meaning not intended.

I am from the common sense school. Like rudy (jingjammy) stated in an earlier post here, dogs do not go around murdering other animals for their own enjoyment. What more needs to be said about thta statement. I am saying that "dog nature" apparently is better than "human nature". When you stoip and break it all down, how can anyone, let alone you reed, argue this fact?

Look at our politicians who womanize while trying to be elected to office?
Look at the same who do it WHILE IN OFFICE.

Look at the Pastors and Fathers of the so-called Holy religions who molest.

Look at the murderers....the rapists....the wife and child beaters and lolestors....the repeat drunk drivers who kill. Hell, do I go ON?

What about the kidnappers who destroy everything sacred in a family by stealing their babies to sell them overseas as slaves and sex servants? Or the sexual preditors you see on NightLine going after whom they believe are underaged children.


Then, I get on here, and see someone suggesting that a guy who tortures dogs by allowing them no other existence but to get thrown into a pit for a fight-to-the-death......deserves another chance? REALLY?

Yes, we all have our own opinions, and I truly feel I am like the most that know what the difference between right and wrong, and what the true value of "rehabilitation" is. And I would say that I too, reed1216, like a good hearty discussion without attacks. So please, know that I am with you on all counts.

But please don't try to tell me about how rediculous it sounds to want to treat a pet (dog, in our discussion) with more passion than we show ourselves as fellow human beings.

The only time you come accross a dog who is of ill-mannered behavior will be largely for two reasons: If it is sick; If it has been mistreated. Domestic animals have good nature naturally. Therefore they should be treated with care, love, and compassion.

Apparently, many many humans do not. That's all I am saying. And I for one don't care to show much compassion, faith, or otherwise, to the bad charactered a-holes of the world.....especially the privilaged ones who should know better. Some humans, reed, just deserve nothing but a burial.

[chakes89]

Re: Doesn't T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

"Last time I checked, Dogs aren't people and shouldn't be treated like such"

and should therefore be killed for amusement? anyway, it's true that dogs aren't like people; unlike vick and many of his pals, i've yet to meet a dog who kills purely to entertain himself. seems even dogs have progressed beyond the sort of reprehensible behavior that still plagues some people.

given that dogs do everything from fight in wars, help the handicapped, keep the borders and airports safe, search for missing people, etc., they're as much a part of society as anyone else. should a dog ever rescue your life, be sure you remember he shouldn't be accorded the same respect as a person.

"They are animals that can turn on you at any time with dangerous results"

completely unlike people, right?





rudy.

Who else thought I was talking about these types of dogs?

Nobody?

Thought so