GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

[kingjammy24]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

jersey sold for $66,000. 20% buyers/10% sellers = $19,800 cut for GFC.

rudy.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

[kingjammy24]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

warren: "Isn't a 10% or 15% or whatever amount commission worth some research?"

their buyer's premium is 20%. i couldn't find anything about a seller's premium on their website but in this lawsuit, it says the seller's premium is 10%:

www.websupp.org/data/EDNY/2:06-cv-05157-13-EDNY.pdf

i'd think 30% warrants some research.

"The photo we have is indeed a photomatch"

indeed!

"perhaps auction houses and evaluators should employ some sort of worksheet that details the evaluation work done on each lot"

no need. i once visited our friends in the hamptons and asked if i could meet with nick coppola and watch him action. they asked me if i'd ever seen the wizard of oz, which i thought was an odd question. upon escorting me to the back room, they pulled back a curtain and i finally came face to face with the great coppola:



i told them i thought using a fortune teller arcade game was a little dated and inaccurate. no problem, they reassured me, they had a brand new, high tech authenticating solution in the works. fully automated and computerized with a 100% accuracy rate. i couldn't believe it so i asked to see their new fangled contraption:



rudy.

[sportscentury]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

I'm guessing a GFC 'photomatch' differs slightly from a MeiGray 'photomatch'.

A MeiGray photomatch differs markedly from a lot of people's understandings of a photomatch. For starters, just check out the numerous "photomatch" threads on GUU. Tough to keep up with all of stylematch-at-best posts.

[aeneas01]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

1) playing in a home state t'ain't neutral.
2) t'wouldn't be a field day for me as it'd make sense.
3) if you want to gauge it on distance, then peoria is still closer to chicago than it is to indianapolis by a good 40-50 miles! if you do it by home state, chicago wears home shirts. if you do it by distance, chicago still wears home shirts. under what bizarro logic does chicago play indianapolis in peoria and the pacers are the ones who show up in home shirts?

1) sure it is, given certain circumstances - if the super bowl was held in chicago (soldier field) and the bears represented the nfc, it would still be considered a neutral site for both teams. and, go figure, it works the other way around as well at times - the saints called new jersey and san antonio home in 2005 due to katrina and, get this, they wore their home shirts during those games!
2) sure it would, fess up now...
3) perhaps the game was originally slated to be played in indiana somewhere, the schedules printed, but plans changed - so the pacers remained the home team. who knows. doesn't strike me as one of the more bizarre events to transpire in sports history....

as far as the gfc style shirt not being worn during the regular season is concerned, i think the jury is still pretty much out on that - seems to me it very well could have been worn during the regular season, certainly a "possibility" imo. and given everything that's been presented in this thread, i think there's a very real possibility that this could be the first nba shirt jordan ever sported. further, if jordan wore this particular shirt during his first game as a pro (preseason in peoria) and during the regular season, which does seem to be a possibility afaic, then i think it would have to be considered one of the most valuable/rare jordan gamers to have surfaced. hey, but that's just me.

perhaps auction houses and evaluators should employ some sort of worksheet that details the evaluation work done on each lot, some sort of worksheet that clearly shows how and why the opinion was formed, complete with references to provenance and stylematched photos. seems to me if something like that was in place, collectors could rest assured that what they were purchasing was indeed as described. wait a minute....

....

[otismalibu]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

The photo we have is indeed a photomatch of this shirt with MJ wearing it on the court during a game."

I'm guessing a GFC 'photomatch' differs slightly from a MeiGray 'photomatch'.

[nickacs]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

I contacted GF about the jersey and received the following:

"We are not sure if the shirt was worn during pre-season or regular season. The photo we have is indeed a photomatch of this shirt with MJ wearing it on the court during a game."

So, doesn't look like there's anymore information they have about the jersey. I agree that the best idea would be if they changed the description, but seeing how someone already bid, doesn't look like that would happen now. Someone wants it!

I agree the research/contributions here have been great and thank everyone for their time!

[kingjammy24]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

"gotta tell ya my friend, these posts of yours struck me as highly ironic! in fact i can only imagine the field day you would have with an auction house if it made the same claims in a lot description - that a shirt was clearly as described, a home shirt for example, because teams "obviously" wore home shirts when playing at nearby neutral sites during the preseason!"

1) playing in a home state t'ain't neutral.
2) t'wouldn't be a field day for me as it'd make sense.
3) if you want to gauge it on distance, then peoria is still closer to chicago than it is to indianapolis by a good 40-50 miles! if you do it by home state, chicago wears home shirts. if you do it by distance, chicago still wears home shirts. under what bizarro logic does chicago play indianapolis in peoria and the pacers are the ones who show up in home shirts?

"as far as the peoria and glens falls preseason games are concerned, peoria is roughly equidistant from chicago and indianapolis while glens falls is over 700 miles away from chicago! granted, peoria is indeed in illinois but, nonetheless, i wouldn't hang my hat on the bulls wearing home shirts
because of this to argue a point!"

so if the indians ever played the tigers in toledo, OH, one shouldn't expect the indians to show up wearing home shirts because detroit's physically closer to toledo than cleveland is. i guess it wouldn't be the first time i assumed too much.

"anyway i contacted the sports department of peoria journal star"

as i expected you to! if joe bates says they've got a conclusively dated pic of the bulls/pacers preseason game on oct 5, 1984 and the bulls are wearing road reds, then i suppose that's what it is even if it doesn't make a lick of sense. anyway, there's been some great research done in this thread, including your own. neither you nor i could remotely be considered to be knowledgable about basketball jerseys or bulls history but we've done more to uncover the truth about this shirt than the official authenticators for the NBA HOF who were paid a handsome fee to market the shirt. the GFC description should've included detailed information about jordan's first preseason game in peoria and should reveal specifics about the previous name and number on the jersey. collectors would benefit far more from that info than from the useless comparisons to babe ruth's first bat.

in addition to changing the title of the lot (because as it stands it makes little sense), i believe GFC should mention that the shirt was not worn in jordan's first regular season game or in his first regular season road game and that the "first" they're referring to is his first preseason game, because the assumption for most would be that "firsts", "lasts" and anything in between refer strictly to the regular-season. they should also mention that as "possible" as it is that jordan wore it in his first preseason game, it's also very possible that jordan never wore it during the regular season.

rudy.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

Robert
Good work in contacting the dude from the Peoria newspaper.
All good points from contributing members. Although, neither you, nor I, nor Rudy are the official authenticators for the Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield, Mass.
Isn't a 10% or 15% or whatever amount commission worth some research?

[aeneas01]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

1. according to press clippings, jordan's first preseason game was in peoria, IL against indiana. as such, jordan would've worn a home jersey.

2. when the bulls played the knicks in glen falls, the knicks wore home whites due to them being in the state of ny. with the game being in peoria, IL isn't it a foregone conclusion that the bulls wore the home whites while the pacers would've obviously worn their road unis? the GFC shirt is a road shirt.....

3. "Michael Jordan’s first professional game was in Peoria, an NBA exhibition between the Bulls and Indiana Pacers. Jordan scored 18 points in 29 minutes and the Bulls won.." so much for it being his first jersey...

gotta tell ya my friend, these posts of yours struck me as highly ironic! in fact i can only imagine the field day you would have with an auction house if it made the same claims in a lot description - that a shirt was clearly as described, a home shirt for example, because teams "obviously" wore home shirts when playing at nearby neutral sites during the preseason! mama mia rudy!

as far as the peoria and glens falls preseason games are concerned, peoria is roughly equidistant from chicago and indianapolis while glens falls is over 700 miles away from chicago! granted, peoria is indeed in illinois but, nonetheless, i wouldn't hang my hat on the bulls wearing home shirts because of this to argue a point!

anyway i contacted the sports department of peoria journal star:

----------------------------

Robert,

I found a photo from Michael Jordan's professional debut on Oct. 5, 1984 at the Peoria Civic Center. The day after Jordan's debut our newspaper ran a photo from the game and the Bulls indeed were wearing their road (dark) jerseys with Chicago written across the front of their uniforms.

I found the photo on our out-dated microfilm machine and it is very hazy, so I didn't bother to have it scanned in and sent to you (per your request I will see if I can discern the difference in number fonts based on the photos you emailed to me).

Let me know if this helps.

Thanks,

Joe Bates
Peoria Journal Star sports department
jbates@pjstar.com[/font]
Phone (309) 686-3214
Fax (309) 686-3205

GFC did end up being remiss, but it was in calling the shirt jordan's "first", not the reverse.

i think we should be fair - gfc clearly didn't call the jersey "jordan's first" as you state. gfc has referred to the jersey as jordan's "possible" first shirt based on, at least in part, hallam's comments regarding the number change. i think there is a big difference, don't you?

anyway, as i posted before, if i were gfc i would change the wording in lot title from "possible first jersey ever issued to jordan" to "possible first nba jersey ever worn by jordan"... seems to me plenty points to the possibility.

...

[kingjammy24]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

Grey Flannel needs to uncover a photo of Jordan from this game in Peoria.

when the bulls played the knicks in glen falls, the knicks wore home whites due to them being in the state of ny. with the game being in peoria, IL isn't it a foregone conclusion that the bulls wore the home whites while the pacers would've obviously worn their road unis? the GFC shirt is a road shirt sooo......

rudy.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

Grey Flannel needs to uncover a photo of Jordan from this game in Peoria.

[kingjammy24]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

nba.com:

"Perhaps appropriately, it began in Peoria. You know the old line about whether it will “play in Peoria,” being shorthand for whether it would be accepted by America. Michael Jordan’s first professional game was in Peoria, an NBA exhibition between the Bulls and Indiana Pacers. Jordan scored 18 points in 29 minutes and the Bulls won.."

so much for it being his first jersey. i guess now the only question left is whether he ever wore the jersey in the regular season.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

1) alberto's last 2 pics show the knicks. in the last pic jordan appears to be wearing black/red shoes. in his first regular season game at MSG, jordan had a correct jersey. i believe this likely means that alberto's last 2 pics are from the same exhibition game as dave o'brien's pic; the preseason game in glen falls.

2) according to press clippings, jordan's first preseason game was in peoria, IL against indiana. as such, jordan would've worn a home jersey. in his first preseason game, jordan wore a home jersey. in his first regular season game, jordan wore a home jersey. in his first road regular season game, jordan didn't wear the GFC shirt. it is not possible for the GFC shirt to be jordan's "first" shirt, either preseason or regular season.

robert, do you feel it was remiss of GFC, who stand to collect a handsome profit on this jersey, not to do the research that a small collection of amateur collectors managed to do for free, before declaring they likely had jordan's "first jersey"? i do. GFC had 1 photo that was previously used by Sotheby's. this thread managed to produce several photos showing jordan wearing the incorrect font. none of the posters on here have access to all of the resources of the NBA HOF and none of them claim to be the "official authenticators for the NBA HOF" yet they all outperformed GFC's efforts several times over. usually you get what you pay for in life but GFC seems to be an exception. GFC did end up being remiss, but it was in calling the shirt jordan's "first", not the reverse. if this is indicative of the effort GFC puts into his highest-end premier items, one can only imagine what they do with the mid-range items.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: GFC: 1984 Michael Jordan's "first" jersey

I got this from an APBR member. I'm assuming it's accurate.

Not sure if every Bulls pre-season game has been established in the press clippings above or not. But, FWIW...

10/5 Bulls 102, Ind 98 @ Peoria
10/7 Bulls 107, KC 100 @ St. Louis
10/9 Bulls 100, Mil 97 @ E Chcago
10/13 Bucks 99, Bulls 84 @ Milw
10/15 Bulls 91, NY 90 @ Glens Falls
10/18 Bulls 112, NY 93 @ NY
10/19 Kings 103, Bulls 89 @ Chicago

wait a minute..if the bulls first preseason game was in peoria, then does that mean that for jordan's first preseason game he would've worn a home jersey?

rudy.