Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

[spartakid]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

Bigtruck- Wasn't Ordonez tied to steriods? I bet that's why his bats have lost value.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

"Do you see the difference??"

yes but i'm not sure what that has to do with anything. from what i can follow of your logic, you're saying that since gehrig was a better player than brock, gehrig's record means more. that's some logic. so the importance of a record is dependent on how good a player the recordholder was?

the importance of a record is inherant in the record and not who held it. otherwise why would people place so much importance on the single season HR record when it was held by an otherwise mediocre player like maris? it's the record that matters, not the record holder.

gehrig was a great player who accomplished much and just happened to hold the consecutive game streak. it was a coincidence that a great player held the streak. the consecutive game record could be held by anyone lucky enough to stay healthy. it could've been held by steve trout for pete's sake or whoever else managed to show up at the park for the most consecutive games. and then what..ripken would've broken steve trout's record. you seem to imply that by breaking gehrig's record, ripken became as good as gehrig. in a performance-based record, it'd be true. in '61 maris did become a better single-season HR hitter than ruth. but ripken didn't become as good as gehrig simply by showing up to the park more times. he was just healthier and luckier. henderson's record on the other hand will only be broken by a faster, smarter baserunner.

"How can you compare Gehrig and Brock to be the same?"

where did i compare gehrig with brock? it was you who compared the two and then concluded that since gehrig was better than brock, ripken's record means more than hendersons. i simply said that upon breaking a non-HR record, ripken's bats saw a premium whereas henderson's didn't. do you see the difference?

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

McGwire bats are desireable because it was never proven that he took steroids.

but when did collectors ever actually wait for proof before voting with their wallets? look at clemens and sosa. no proof on those two and their items have plummeted. i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom. i think even mcgwire collectors feel he juiced it but just don't care. like you said, they remember being entertained for a number of years and that's apparently all that really matters. i think you're right about nostalgia which amounts to popularity. ultimately, mcgwire's fans stuck by him and sosas' didn't. not sure why. same thing driving bo jackson prices; nostalgia. everyone remembers the "bo knows" commercials and how entertaining the whole bo campaign was. 20 yrs later, apparently bo knows long-term value.

rudy.

[suave1477]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

"Do you see the difference??"

yes but i'm not sure what that has to do with anything. from what i can follow of your logic, you're saying that since gehrig was a better player than brock, gehrig's record means more. that's some logic. so the importance of a record is dependent on how good a player the recordholder was?

the importance of a record is inherant in the record and not who held it. otherwise why would people place so much importance on the single season HR record when it was held by an otherwise mediocre player like maris? it's the record that matters, not the record holder.

gehrig was a great player who accomplished much and just happened to hold the consecutive game streak. it was a coincidence that a great player held the streak. the consecutive game record could be held by anyone lucky enough to stay healthy. it could've been held by steve trout for pete's sake or whoever else managed to show up at the park for the most consecutive games. and then what..ripken would've broken steve trout's record. you seem to imply that by breaking gehrig's record, ripken became as good as gehrig. in a performance-based record, it'd be true. in '61 maris did become a better single-season HR hitter than ruth. but ripken didn't become as good as gehrig simply by showing up to the park more times. he was just healthier and luckier. henderson's record on the other hand will only be broken by a faster, smarter baserunner.

"How can you compare Gehrig and Brock to be the same?"

where did i compare gehrig with brock? it was you who compared the two and then concluded that since gehrig was better than brock, ripken's record means more than hendersons. i simply said that upon breaking a non-HR record, ripken's bats saw a premium whereas henderson's didn't. do you see the difference?

rudy.

First you prove my point then dispute it.

Maybe this is a better example Gehrig held the record for 56 years and no one ever expected it to be broken (granted a record that means you have to show up at the ball park every day for your career and play a few innings every game)
But 56 year record is a very long time
I don't think anyone at this point is speculated to break Ripkens Record

Brocks record stood from 1979 till 1991 - 12 years
Not a very long time in comparison which makes the playing every day record and staying healthy seem that much more harder.

With already there is speculation that Jose Reyes if he was to stay healthy is on pace to passing Brock and possibly Henderson

But we will see.

Again it all boils down to popularity and Rareness.

Especially since Henderson pimped out his own equipment and added a lot more to the Game Used Hobby Market.

[Yankwood]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

McGwire bats are desireable because it was never proven that he took steroids. His bats that are legit are usually blasted with use, and in all probability, if you have a 1998-1999 model there is a very high probability that he hit a homer(s) with it. If he had confessed to juicing point blank...things MIGHT have been different.

I am one of those people that would pay handsomely (if I had the cash right now) for a Mac bat with heavy use and team paperwork...and from what I have seen - $2000 seems about par for the course. Guys my age (33) and around my age have strong memories of Mac's whole career...and it was, for some of us, very entertaining. Nostalgia is the other half.

OVERPRICED, overhyped - overdone...Derek Jeter. Sorry, he is an average player who had a few good seasons. His defense is terrible, the worst. If he played in any other city, his value would be FAR less than $1-2K for a cracked bat.

Magglio Ordonez is undervalued. His numbers are off the charts, yet I have seen bats of his sell for less than $100.

Of course Jeter is an average player. The Hall of Fame is loaded with "average" players who have collected over 3000 hits and are "terrible" fielders who have won multiple gold gloves. I've done it-haven't you?

[suave1477]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

but when did collectors ever actually wait for proof before voting with their wallets? look at clemens and sosa. no proof on those two and their items have plummeted. i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom. i think even mcgwire collectors feel he juiced it but just don't care. like you said, they remember being entertained for a number of years and that's apparently all that really matters. i think you're right about nostalgia which amounts to popularity. ultimately, mcgwire's fans stuck by him and sosas' didn't. not sure why. same thing driving bo jackson prices; nostalgia. everyone remembers the "bo knows" commercials and how entertaining the whole bo campaign was. 20 yrs later, apparently bo knows long-term value.

rudy.

This is a perfect point!!

Except to add why people stood more with Sosa (I think) then Mac was because Mac was the first one to break Maris record.

Here is another example:
Why are BMW so much more expensive then Honda Accords??

Is it that much better of a car noooo they break down just like Hondas do.
Some may even say Hondas don't break down as much.
Is the BMW roomier inside then a Honda nooo Actually a Honda Accord is more roomier then a BMW.
How about maintenance costs?
Is a BMW cheaper to fix? No
Actually a BMW probably costs about 3 times more to fix than a Honda Accord.
So why are they more expensive and people would rather have a BMW (Granted if they could afford it) over a Honda.
More Hondas are produced a year Vs. BMW
Maybe it's because BMW are faster. well really what dose it matter we all have to follow the same laws and drive up to the same speed.

Because of popularity and rareness!!

[lund6771]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

but when did collectors ever actually wait for proof before voting with their wallets? look at clemens and sosa. no proof on those two and their items have plummeted. i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom. i think even mcgwire collectors feel he juiced it but just don't care. like you said, they remember being entertained for a number of years and that's apparently all that really matters. i think you're right about nostalgia which amounts to popularity. ultimately, mcgwire's fans stuck by him and sosas' didn't. not sure why. same thing driving bo jackson prices; nostalgia. everyone remembers the "bo knows" commercials and how entertaining the whole bo campaign was. 20 yrs later, apparently bo knows long-term value.

rudy.

great thread!...for myself, I've always been interested in gettng both McGuire and Sosa bats for my collection...and also a Bo Jackson jersey from the Raiders...why is that I thought to myself after reading this thread?

Was it all the media hype that these guys were getting during their "primetime"?....built up by the media as "Superman"?....maybe...for me it has nothing to do with their stats...it's the way these players made me feel while watching them

For myself, McGuire's 1998 season got me interested in baseball again...it was so much fun watching him daily that year..and the media built him up as a Paul Bunyon...McGuire was folk lore..a big, strong, all-american type of guy..a hero

I think that Sosa was just along for the ride that year...his accomplishments in 98 made the whole story even better

If McGuire presented himself before congress the same way that Pailmero and Clemens did, I think that people would think differently of him now..but he didn't...I think that people almost feel sorry for him instead of anger that they feel towards Clemens and the others...they feel betrayed by these guys now because the lied to the public that day in congress

If McGuire would have accomplished his feats cleanly, I'm sure that his jerseys would be in the $10,000 range and bats would be $5000+....

A Bo Jackson Raiders jersey is so extremely rare...

the people that pay the big money for these items are the ones that remember that these guys were larger than life in a certain period in history..will my kids have any idea who Bo Jackson was?...probably not, but there are a lot of people in my generation that will, and those are the people that will pay the big money

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

for the most part, prices seem tied to player stats. beyond that, scarcity also plays a role. that said, there are a few players whose items have always struck me as notably overpriced and others as underpriced without any rhyme or reason. what players do you feel are inexplicably, oddly overpriced and/or underpriced? my list:

overpriced
----------

1) bo jackson. a solid KC Royals game-used jersey would fetch around $2k (even more if there's provenance). $2k+ for a guy who had a total of 4 good seasons and racked up these completely mediocre career stats:
141 career HRs
598 career hits
.250 career BA
never a single season with more than 32 HRs and 1 all-star game. his stats are on par with ron kittle and i don't see ron kittle jerseys going for $2k+. no doubt bo was very exciting but it was for a very, very brief amount of time.

2) mark mcgwire. i recently read about solid bats of his going for upwards of $2k. i imagine jerseys would be around $4k? what would prices be if he hadn't, you know, juiced it his entire career? $5k bats? the steroid fiasco decimated prices for canseco, sosa, and clemens items. it also deeply affected bonds' items. at least bonds racked up some impressive stats cleanly before he started juicing it in the latter half of his career. if canseco is to be believed, and he's been right on the money so far, mcgwire began juicing it early on in oakland. one big juiced career and his bats are still upwards of $2k? why did canseco and sosa take such a massive hit from it and not mcgwire? canseco bats can be had for peanuts. sosa's got more career HRs than mcgwire.

3) any rookie who's had a 1-2 yrs so far. eg: pedroia. jtbats is currently selling an ellsbury for $499. sure ellsbury's 2008 season with a thundering 9 HRs and a couldn't-quite-get-to-300 .280 BA is astounding
and has probably been replicated by only 8000 other major leaguers, but it makes me wonder why jtbats is charging much less for bats of frank thomas, gary sheffield, jim thome, etc.

underpriced
-----------

1) rickey henderson. one of the greatest ballplayers of all time, first ballot HOFer, over 3000 hits, holds the SB record, and yet his bats seem to go for around $500. compare that to ripken's bats that often go well over $1k.

2) frank thomas. thomas bats go for 1/3 to 1/2 of griffey bats. what is the big disparity between the two? neither have ever been implicated in the steroids mess. thomas has a clean 521 HRs and griffey has 611, but thomas has a .301 career BA compared to griffey's .288. sure griffey was a great outfielder for a while. i'm not knocking junior but was he really twice or three times the player thomas was? as for supply, griffey was a bat factory for his entire career, pumping stuff out to mill creek and coast to coast. certainly no scarcity for his bats. the price of thomas bats seem to be on par with sosa bats which is really confusing considering thomas' HRs are clean and sosas' aren't.

what other pricing oddities are out there?

rudy.

Rudy,

My take......

Bo Jackson's stuff has high demand for one reason and one reason only: He was a superstar athlete who was the ONLY one who ever made it as an All-Star in two professional sports. That alone makes his G.U. Items big time collectibles.

Mark McGwire.....tough case. No matter how you feel about him, I believe he will always have popularity in the game. His epic battle with Sosa was HUGE in '98, I can't remember a more popular time in the game (in our lifetime) than that duel.......and he was the first ever to hit 70 bombs in a single season, breaking Roger Maris' record on the way. Yes, it's obvious he used steroids, but he was a likeable guy......not an arrogant a-hole like Bonds, or aloof and disinterested like A-Rod can be. Last point on McGwire......He was always a big bomb hitter. Who knows where he would have ended up if he had done it square?

Underpriced......

Rickey Henderson......I will probably take a lot of heat for this, but.....I believe Ricky juiced. His body was that of a greek God, built like a brick s#!t house. He had that "strange" longevity thing going on too (make you think of anyone else who performed at a HIGH level LATE in his career?)
Also, let's just say it's hard to warm up to the guy....His third-person conversations about himself are just this side of "Twilight Zone" stuff.

Frank Thomas......also some controversy in his career, mainly in the way he was ousted by the Sox. But I think his stuff is already on the rise, and will continue as time marches on. However, there is that big fat "Steroid" question mark hanging over his head.....basically a "guilt-by-assocition" unproven theory.

Here's to hoping he's clean, and was one of the good guys.

[bigtruck260]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

but when did collectors ever actually wait for proof before voting with their wallets? look at clemens and sosa. no proof on those two and their items have plummeted. i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom. i think even mcgwire collectors feel he juiced it but just don't care. like you said, they remember being entertained for a number of years and that's apparently all that really matters. i think you're right about nostalgia which amounts to popularity. ultimately, mcgwire's fans stuck by him and sosas' didn't. not sure why. same thing driving bo jackson prices; nostalgia. everyone remembers the "bo knows" commercials and how entertaining the whole bo campaign was. 20 yrs later, apparently bo knows long-term value.

rudy.

I was reading on CNN/SI the other day about how 'smart" Mac was for not implicating himself in the steroid scandal. This way, if it ever comes out as fact - he can't say he lied the way Clemens did. Lying on top of cheating is sinking lower than low. The public can forgive mistakes on some levels (NOT murder O.J.) but if you lie to them repeatedly, you just come off as a jerk - much the way A-Rod is looking right about now.

Personally, I believe that Mac juiced at some point. Maybe not his whole career - but certainly at some point when he was injured. I also think he worked very hard at his game...the folks in STL tend to treat baseball players like royalty. With Mac, many of them turned tail and ran ---but a few die hard collectors here drive the market up every time. The logic is (and I've bid before)...'Hey - there is a Mac bat on eBay that looks legit - Jeff Scott says it looks good...and it's only at $400 with a day left to go...I'll place a $600 (enter higher price) bid and see what happens.

There are different levels of disposable income, so there will be different limits. Logic in collecting tells you that even at $1200, a legit 1998 Mac bat is a deal. When you get to $1200 - why not go $1500? If you really want it, that is. I've never taken that plunge - but I will someday if I have to. I bet every person who has a bat of Mac's with great air tight provenance treats is as a showcase piece in thier collection (everyone but the afformentioned Mr. Scott, who has a conucopia of showcase pieces )

As for Magglio and roids - now that you mention it, yes, I think I do remember hearing something along those lines. I still think it's a deal for $100. If Magglio took steroids, he doesn't anymore (if he does, he's really stupid) and he's still got great numbers.

Carlos Lee is another one...

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

You know........Another VERY important thing about McGwire......

He didn't "hang on" to the game, sucking out the last few years he could to puff up his career stats. He quit at 38, turning down a huge contract and walking away from the game because he said his "body had had enough." That unselfish act made way for Pujols.

I think that left yet another positive in the minds of fans about the guy. That alone proved that he wasn't in it for the money, or the fame. He played the game because he enjoyed it, loved it, and he did give us all one HELL of a show.

As I mentioned in another prior thread, I truly believe that if he came out and told us all.......if he came clean about his use..........He would be forgiven with open arms (with some initial backlash) and, eventually, be elected to the Hall.

[skyking26]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

You know........Another VERY important thing about McGwire......

He didn't "hang on" to the game, sucking out the last few years he could to puff up his career stats. He quit at 38, turning down a huge contract and walking away from the game because he said his "body had had enough." That unselfish act made way for Pujols.

I think that left yet another positive in the minds of fans about the guy. That alone proved that he wasn't in it for the money, or the fame. He played the game because he enjoyed it, loved it, and he did give us all one HELL of a show.

As I mentioned in another prior thread, I truly believe that if he came out and told us all.......if he came clean about his use..........He would be forgiven with open arms (with some initial backlash) and, eventually, be elected to the Hall.

I agree. My dad as well as my wife think McGwire is one huge a*shole that let me down as well as so many others. People are people, not Gods. I always took the stance that McGwire was injured SO OFTEN (in fact his career looked over in 93-94 with foot, etc injuries and back to back 9 HR seasons), that he may have taken the steroids initially to heal. When he not only overcame injuries but it physically made him better, he continued.

We all know McGwire was a born natural HR hitter from little league on. His first hit as a little leaguer was a HR. He did not need roids to help his game. I have never liked the way he handled the congressional meetings. I think he damaged his rep there. Should he come up front humbly, and we all know he can because he is a likeable guy, I think he would be forgiver very quickly and in the Hall eventually. While many experts may point to him as a one dimensional guy, he was an entertainer and we all know about 1998. I'll never forget it sitting at home with my 1 pound, 8 oz. son. It kept my head on straight during some very tough times in my life then.

I also agree with suicide's passing of the torch analogy. If you go back, it's just the way life is. Kingman retired in 86 to make way for Mac and canseco, McGwire walked away from alot of $$ in 01 to make way for Pujols. For any negatives bestowed on McGwire's career, there are many bright spots. He never said a word about a team mate either.

I'd love to have a legit McGwire A's or Cards home jersey, Cards bat. Finding one is tuff. Those in the know keep an eye out for me, but I guess they are scarce...or my phone doesn't work!

[Birdbats]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom.

rudy.

When McGwire retired, up until his fiasco on Capitol Hill, his signed Cardinals-era bats routinely sold at auction for $3,500-4,000. An airtight '98 bat could get $5K at auction. In the past few months, I've seen a perfect 2000 bat sell for as little as $1,100 ($1,500-1,800 is typical for non-'98 bats) and a perfect 1998 bat sell for a shade over $2K ($2,200-2,500 is typical). Both bats were purchased by Forum members. That's still a good chunk of change, but to suggest McGwire's prices have stayed "up there" is ignoring the fact that his bats now are selling for about 30-50 percent of what they used to fetch.

$1,000 Sosa bats today sell for $350-500 -- about the same loss of value, percentage-wise.

We could debate all day about who was more popular and why, but there's no question that Sosa's bats were (and are) much more plentiful than legit McGwire bats -- and that's the key reason for the disparity in price.

People who bought Sosa bats at their peak have lost hundreds of dollars in value. People who bought Mac bats at their peak have lost thousands.

[panthrotc]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

When McGwire retired, up until his fiasco on Capitol Hill, his signed Cardinals-era bats routinely sold at auction for $3,500-4,000. An airtight '98 bat could get $5K at auction. In the past few months, I've seen a perfect 2000 bat sell for as little as $1,100 ($1,500-1,800 is typical for non-'98 bats) and a perfect 1998 bat sell for a shade over $2K ($2,200-2,500 is typical). Both bats were purchased by Forum members. That's still a good chunk of change, but to suggest McGwire's prices have stayed "up there" is ignoring the fact that his bats now are selling for about 30-50 percent of what they used to fetch.

$1,000 Sosa bats today sell for $350-500 -- about the same loss of value, percentage-wise.

We could debate all day about who was more popular and why, but there's no question that Sosa's bats were (and are) much more plentiful than legit McGwire bats -- and that's the key reason for the disparity in price.

People who bought Sosa bats at their peak have lost hundreds of dollars in value. People who bought Mac bats at their peak have lost thousands.

jeff, what is it gonna take to get that mac HR bat outa your collection? is their anywhere you can point in the direction to a signed mac gamer? I have a 90 signed gamer and a 2000, but i need another one...

[skyking26]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

jeff, what is it gonna take to get that mac HR bat outa your collection? is their anywhere you can point in the direction to a signed mac gamer? I have a 90 signed gamer and a 2000, but i need another one...

Hell, I can't even find a signed regular Mac uncracked bat...

[kingjammy24]

Re: Underpriced / Overpriced Oddities

jason: i just didn't think your point made much, if any, sense: henderson breaking brock's SB record isn't as impressive as ripken breaking gehrig's consecutive game streak on the grounds that gehrig was a better overall player than brock? you're comparing the record-holders instead of the specific records themselves. even under your logic, there's the fact that brock broke ty cobb's previous single-season SB record and his career record and cobb was better than gehrig. as for long-standing records, it's true that brock's only stood for 12 years, but when he broke it in '77 it had stood for 76 years. it was simply bad timing that henderson arrived in the majors shortly after brock broke it.

as for reyes and passing henderson, henderson owns both the single season and all-time SB records. reyes has been in the majors 6 yrs already and the most he ever stole was 78. rickey did 100 his second season and then swiped 130. not only is his single-season record safe but in order for reyes to pass him career-wise, he'd have to steal 60 bases, every season, for the next 19 years. good luck.

it seems that when it comes to prices, popularity trumps actual performance.

re: bo jackson. i like bo a lot. he was a lot of fun. if a well-priced bat or jersey of his came up, i'd purchase it. i just don't get why an 80s jersey of a guy who never accomplished all that much is well over 4-figures. not counting the infinite wisdom of joe p., bo himself may have said it best when he said "Everything I do, people tend to exaggerate it," he moaned. "With me, they want to make things bigger than they are."
superhuman strength! superhuman strength that couldn't crank out more than 32 homers in '89, his best year. little howard johnson cranked out more home runs in '89 and so did 6 other guys who didn't have bo's superhuman strength. as for the tape measure homers, bo didn't set any records there either. a whole lot of guys hit them as far and further, including mantle, frank howard, kingman, and cecil fielder yet noone ever said they were from another planet. kingman's insane 530-footer tops any bo ever hit. his superhuman speed never translated to anything more than a career-best 27 SBs. i'm sure his strength and speed made for a great NFL Combine but on the baseball field, it didn't seem to amount to much other than a ton of strikeouts and some fun highlight reels. he was so loved by the fans that in his 4 best seasons, he was only voted to the all-star team once which is incredible given his popularity and therefore can only be viewed as a statement of how poorly bo compared to his peers during those years. gets named MVP at the '89 ASG, puts on a great show and doesn't even called as a reserve in 1990 despite having a typical year? (by the way, the 1990 ASG was held in chicago, one of the cities bo is revered according to byergo. apparently he couldn't even make the reserve squad to appear in one of his biggest fanbases).

pete i think you hit the nail on the head: "it's the way these players made me feel while watching them". honestly, it surprises me that mcgwire collectors don't care whether he juiced it or not. it was fun watching him and that's all that really seems to matter. apparently, the same doesn't apply to sosa for some reason.

"Bo Jackson's stuff has high demand for one reason and one reason only: He was a superstar athlete who was the ONLY one who ever made it as an All-Star in two professional sports. That alone makes his G.U. Items big time collectibles."

except that he wasn't the only one. brian jordan made the NFL Pro Bowl in '92 and the MLB All-Star team in 1999. jordan and jackson have similar career stats in baseball but jordan's jerseys go for a tiny fraction of jacksons'. deion sanders on the other hand is the only two-sporter who appeared in both a world series and a super bowl. championships are considered more valuable than all-star games and bo never went to either a world series or super bowl yet his items are still pricier than sanders'. all logic just seems to fly out the window.

re: rickey on the juice
canseco named a ton of names. canseco and henderson played together, sharing the outfield on the A's from '89-92, the prime mcgwire/canseco juicing years. canseco specifically addressed henderson in his first book and said that all he had to say about rickey was that he went to the park every day and worked his ass off. if henderson had juiced it then i don't see how canseco wouldn't have known and if he did, then i can't imagine why, of all people, canseco would've kept it quiet.

rudy.