Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

b. as only taking a portion of the sample or eliminating the stars serves no purpose.

The standard should be based upon all known examples. Then you look at each shirt individually an account for variations. You can't just say a common A's is tagged this way so all A's shirts should be. That is irresponsible and incomplete research. If there are 75 1990 A's examples to chose from you look at all 75 regardless of the player and then make your conclusion.

[karamaxjoe]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure Rudy is asking for someone to give us a decent sample of a common Red Sox jersey without the blue border tags in the 70's. If you include star players in your research, the experiment is not as accurate. We can make a better assumption that Red Sox fans in the mid 70's were not running over to the McAulife store for a Jim Willoughby, Bob Bailey or Doug Griffin jersey. It's extremley likely that if McAulife was selling jerseys to the public, the first shirts going out the door were Yaz, Fisk, Lynn and Rice. Once we have a decent selection of commons, the stars can be included.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Was in the middle of typing mine when Rudy posted his. Also there is nothing in my post that he did not say himself. You need to be clear in your posts. Not make generalized blanket statements. You need to realize their are new collectors. It's funny I bring to light an issue that still no long time hobbyist can prove regarding the borderless jerseys and people want to get mad at me. Even Dave Medina's research only brought more questions and no answers and now the feeling that blue border jerseys could also be retails? Funny I thought blue bordered jerseys were 100% gamers well at least accoarding to Mr. Lewis. When are we all just going to admit that it is a tag vartaion and that there is no evidence of it being anything more than that?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

You don't even read Rudy's posts before responding, do you?

my favorite:

me: "how do you accurately figure out what those standards should be?"
eric: "In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey."

the word "how" threw him. Q: how do i peel an apple? A: if you can't peel an apple then you shouldn't peel an apple. #@! brilliant.

HOW eric. HOW do you set a standard? let's say you're a collector and you're trying to determine how 1990 A's NON-SPARE jerseys should be tagged. HOW do you do this? again, the imperative word in that sentence is "how". in determining what the tagging should be for 1990 A's NON-SPARE shirts do you:

a) examine full-roster common players?
b) examine full-roster common players AND full-roster superstars?

all i want to see in your next post is 1 letter; either A or B. that's it. type A or type B. pretend your keyboard only has 2 letters. after you've typed your letter, look at it. is your letter an A or is it a B? if the letter you typed is B, then elaborate what benefits B has over A.

rudy.

[mbrieve]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

King for new collectors uneducated board members etc, I am giving an example of how no theory is 100 % correct. In regards to a common players jersey you need to let people know that even then there is tagging that is not consistent, as some late season call ups and trades are tagged in the same way as players who have been with the team the whole season and others are not tagged the same way.

In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey.

It should not matter weather or not you are using a star or a common to determine if a shirt is legitimate and tagged properly that's the error in your argument. A universal standard need's to be established to evaluate and then there are factors that go into evaluating each shirt on it's own merits.

The Red Sox factor was brought up to show that even in today's collecting marketplace not all shirts are tagged the same way.

You and Mr.Lewis seems to want to say that things are this way or that way when even Mr. Medina of MEARS has admitted that no conclusion can be drawn at this point in regards to the McAuliffe tags, and MR. Grob feels that futher information is need as there are examples of blue bordered shirts that Mr. Medina feels are retails.

It is laughable that Mr. Lewis will not provide the order records he states he has to MEARS to try and provide the collecting community with more research material. If Mr.Lewis has the records and is concerned with cleaning up the hobby why not provide what he has to allow the authenticators and auctions hopuses to have the information they need to represent a piece in the correct way?

Fact of the matter is borderless tag McAuliffe are a tag varation nothing more as evident by numerous examples within the hobby that range from coaches to superstars.

You don't even read Rudy's posts before responding, do you?

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

king it seems as thought there are blithering idiots in this hobby everywhere. When you make a statement you can't make a blanket statement you have to break it down and allow for the possibility of items that don't match up 100% to what the baseline is but are still actually game used or worn.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

King for new collectors uneducated board members etc, I am giving an example of how no theory is 100 % correct. In regards to a common players jersey you need to let people know that even then there is tagging that is not consistent, as some late season call ups and trades are tagged in the same way as players who have been with the team the whole season and others are not tagged the same way.

In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey.

It should not matter weather or not you are using a star or a common to determine if a shirt is legitimate and tagged properly that's the error in your argument. A universal standard need's to be established to evaluate and then there are factors that go into evaluating each shirt on it's own merits.

The Red Sox factor was brought up to show that even in today's collecting marketplace not all shirts are tagged the same way.

You and Mr.Lewis seems to want to say that things are this way or that way when even Mr. Medina of MEARS has admitted that no conclusion can be drawn at this point in regards to the McAuliffe tags, and MR. Grob feels that futher information is need as there are examples of blue bordered shirts that Mr. Medina feels are retails.

It is laughable that Mr. Lewis will not provide the order records he states he has to MEARS to try and provide the collecting community with more research material. If Mr.Lewis has the records and is concerned with cleaning up the hobby why not provide what he has to allow the authenticators and auctions hopuses to have the information they need to represent a piece in the correct way?

Fact of the matter is borderless tag McAuliffe are a tag varation nothing more as evident by numerous examples within the hobby that range from coaches to superstars.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Also the long held theory of :

"look at a common player to see how a jersey should be tagged" does not hold water.

Case in point common player David Pauley, Devern Hanseck, Mike Stanton Red Sox jerseys all lacked the strip tag that 2005-current Red Sox jerseys have yet all were road shirts and all were late season call ups or trades, all were purchased from the team and all have the 0062 was tag.

Since they are commons that lack the strip tag should all 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 Red Sox Jerseys lack the strip tag? If that were the case then all stripped tagged shirts would be fakes correct?

when most people in this hobby would attempt to ascertain the tagging for a full-roster player they wouldn't be stupid enough to use callups/trades.

to ascertain the tagging on a full-roster player, they'd look at the tagging of COMMON full-roster players. to ascertain the tagging on callups/trades, they'd look at the tagging on COMMON callups/trades. apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

now i concur that when i used the term "common player" i didn't qualify it by saying that a further distinction should be made between full-roster players and callups/trades because i'd made the assumption that most already knew this basic piece of info and weren't completely braindead. your "case in point" rebuttal to this long-held theory assumes that people are blithering idiots who are clueless to the fact that you don't compare spare jerseys with non-spares.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

"Your argument is flawed you have to evaluate each jersey Superstar or common on the same factors so a Walt Wise or a Jose Canseco A's should both be held to the same standard."

and how do you accurately figure out what those standards should be?

"Just as a McAuliffe Yaz or a McAuliffe Reggie Cleveland should both be evaluated under the same standard."

i never once implied that superstar jerseys should be evaluated under a different set of standards. rather, i simply spoke of how to determine accurate baselines. that's all. can you see the difference?

"Case in point common player David Pauley, Devern Hanseck, Mike Stanton Red Sox jerseys all lacked the strip tag that 2005-current Red Sox jerseys have yet all were road shirts and all were late season call ups or trades, all were purchased from the team and all have the 0062 was tag.
Since they are commons that lack the strip tag should all 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 Red Sox Jerseys lack the strip tag? If that were the case then all stripped tagged shirts would be fakes correct?"

there is absolutely no way you've got anywhere near 20 yrs in this hobby. jesus H. in the example you gave, anyone with at least half an ounce of common sense, in trying to evaluate proper tagging for '05 red sox NON-SPARE shirts would obviously not base anything on 3 late-season call-ups. are you for real? if you wanted to figure out how the sox tagged their NON-SPARE shirts why on earth would you use SPARE shirts? you wouldn't. you'd only look at common players who'd been on the roster since spring training. i can see now why lon has given up on you and at this point, i'm going to follow his lead.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

"So then the shirt direct from Yaz to his agent is a fake lack of blue border? the blue bordered lynn that according to ruddy is wrong sizw again direct from yaz to his agent is a fake becaue lynn wore a 44 and it is a 42."

i have no clue about those shirts but what shirt that was "given to his agent" are you talking about? miedema said the shirt was "gifted by Yaz to close friend and longtime show promoter Dick Gordon". are you referring to some other shirt? anyway, like i said, i don't know about those shirts but it wouldn't shock me if a player gave a show promoter a retail shirt. yaz probably had a lot of people asking for his shirts just like stars always do. did everyone who asked yaz for a shirt get one of his gamers? or did yaz keep a bunch of retail shirts on hand to give out when people asked? either way why even have this discussion when instead you could just use common player jerseys whom practically noone asked for their shirts?

"Jerseys aviable for public sale at retails stores? No one ever remembers this as something that was done."

in his 3.0 guide, bill henderson writes about how in the 70s, fans could get "team spec" jerseys from the teams local lettering shop. bill writes "I recall seeing the availability of authentic, new Wilson Phillies jerseys offered through Phillies' sponsor Gold Medal Sporting Goods stores for the first time in about 1977. Delivered plain, with no player number or name affixed, one could be special ordered for $70..Lettering was $20 extra and took an additional month or more.."

"Mr. Lewis has refused to provide MEARS with the order sheets he claims to have. Why? If he has info that is helpful to the hobby why not give it to the largest evaluator in the hobby to help them make the right call?"

MEARS isn't the largest evaulator in the hobby. they have 1 auction house contract. lou lampson has at least 5. secondly, MEARS is a profit-making endeavor that charges the collecting community for access to it's information. the better question then would be why would lon hand over, for free, the order sheets to a firm that's then going to turn around and profit from them? incidentally, lon has shared the info with private collectors.

i once asked MEARS simply if they had worked on a certain jersey. i didn't ask for the evaluation or any other info. i simply wanted to know if they had examined a certain shirt. the answer i received? don't ask for that type of info. given their response, there isn't a single shred of information i'd be willing to share with MEARS. if i want to help the hobby, i can share it for free on GUF with other collectors who've gladly helped me for free. sharing info with MEARS isn't helping the hobby as much as it's helping MEARS turn a buck. count me out.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

king i will respectfully disagree as we have seen no rhyme or reason to the tagging and MEARS excuse Dave M of Mears admits as much in the post on the website today. In which he states that retail's (if they do exist) in his opinion can have both blue bordered tags or non blue bordered tags. The only constant is that there is no constant in regards to McAuliffe tagging.

Your argument is flawed you have to evaluate each jersey Superstar or common on the same factors so a Walt Wise or a Jose Canseco A's should both be held to the same standard.

Just as a McAuliffe Yaz or a McAuliffe Reggie Cleveland should both be evaluated under the same standard.

Your position that it would take to much time is laughable that's what research is.

Also the long held theory of :


"look at a common player to see how a jersey should be tagged" does not hold water.

Case in point common player David Pauley, Devern Hanseck, Mike Stanton Red Sox jerseys all lacked the strip tag that 2005-current Red Sox jerseys have yet all were road shirts and all were late season call ups or trades, all were purchased from the team and all have the 0062 was tag.

Since they are commons that lack the strip tag should all 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 Red Sox Jerseys lack the strip tag? If that were the case then all stripped tagged shirts would be fakes correct?

There is no certainity in the hobby in regards to tagging. Font, color, material yes but tagging no.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

rudy that is crazzy, to eliminate a segment of the jerseys because it was a star player? Who's to say that stars did not get different tagging from commons? There are examples of miss tagged years in all sports, missing patches on jerseys. Stars who wore shirt's that were 2 plus years old, recycled jerseys. A jersey should be evaluated on it's own merrits not someone conteniton about tag borders or eliminate the superstatrs. So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

you're only eliminating the segment for the sole purpose of determining what the tagging should be. what's so crazy about that? whatever conclusion lon and mears and others come to, you want to be able to accept and have faith in the results right? you don't want this turning into some florida voting debacle. well the fact is if you base your results heavily on HOF jerseys, there'll be people who'll rightfully question the accuracy of the findings so why not pre-emptively dispel such things by using only common players?

lots of superstar jerseys do have the same tagging as common players. and many don't. how and why would you set up the arduous process of sifting through all of that if you don't have to? what possible benefit does throwing HOF jerseys into the mix add? it's a lot of risk for no benefit at all.

it's a long held theory by many in this hobby that if you want to find out how a jersey "should be", you look at a common player. ie: a player who has little to no risk of being faked. a player who didn't order a ton of jerseys for the sole sake of charities, give aways, replacing stolen shirts, etc. you want a textbook example and many times superstar HOFers aren't textbook examples. some are and some aren't. you'd need to sift out each one and why would you add more work to this whole process? if i wanted to know the proper, textbook tagging for the 1990 A's, i'd look at gallego, blankenship, lansford, javier, honeycutt. what possible benefit, for the sole purpose of trying to ascertain tagging, would throwing mcgwire and canseco into the mix add? so i can then spend hours more on top of it all trying to determine if i even have legit mcgwires and cansecos to start with? the odds of a blankenship being faked are almost nil. the odds of a mcgwire being faked are extremely high. but you want to throw it into the mix anyway..why? just to make things even harder? just to reduce the odds of coming to an accurate conclusion? or just because you enjoy doing more than is necessary?

So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

this isn't about evaluating superstar jerseys is it? this is about determining whether mcauliffe sold retail shirts and whether those shirts had different tagging than pro shirts.

to answer your question anyway, i'd evaluate the jersey of a superstar once i already had an accurate baseline for the tagging, which at this point doesn't seem that we do in regards to mcauliffe. if i was evaluating a mcgwire then i'd only do so after knowing how the blankenship, honeycutt, and gallego were tagged. the baseline, as held by many in this hobby,
should the common player shirt, not the superstar for obvious reasons.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

i say pound the books - or the net. must be some conclusive photo evidence lurking out there somewhere. no smoking guns here but you get the idea...















for that guu kc fan....



....

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

So then the shirt direct from Yaz to his agent is a fake lack of blue border? the blue bordered lynn that according to ruddy is wrong sizw again direct from yaz to his agent is a fake becaue lynn wore a 44 and it is a 42.

Jerseys aviable for public sale at retails stores? No one ever remembers this as something that was done.

Mr. Lewis has refused to provide MEARS with the order sheets he claims to have. Why? If he has info that is helpful to the hobby why not give it to the largest evaluator in the hobby to help them make the right call?

If borderless tags became the norm in 1980 then why are their 81 blue borders?

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

rudy that is crazzy, to eliminate a segment of the jerseys because it was a star player? Who's to say that stars did not get different tagging from commons?

So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

I can tell you how I WOULDN'T base who is a superstar and who isn't......

I wouldn't allow a jersey manufacturer make the decision for the baseball world by determining which player gets the blue lines, and which don't.....like you have just suggested as a possibility.

Again, the "defense attorney" arguments just keep coming. Do anything to create "reasonable doubt".

It DOES, however, make sense that there would be a LOT of the "superstar" players jerseys floating aroung because they were being reproduced by the manufacturer for sale to the public from retail stores.

Why? Because the superstars are popular, and they would sell.

Rudy's "theory" holds water.

And that's just my opinion.