Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

although i know nothing about mcauliffe shirts and the shirts far pre-date my collecting niche, i think this entire issue is a really interesting one. i hope lon posts again because from what i gather, some of his comments have been misinterpreted and miscommunicated.

anyway, here are dave miedema's full comments: http://www.network54.com/Forum/42715...mp%3B2004Bosox
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"With the ongoing disagreement over the retail sale of tagged McAuliffe Red Sox (and A's) jerseys that is currently running on Game Used Forum (and on which my comments have been posted, with my permission, after a question from another member), here is my response to the above member's question.

My comments, if you will read them completely, and not just the parts that interest you, never once mentioned the issue of blue-bordered tagging...you are putting words in my text that were not there. My comments were pertaining to the belief that Lon Lewis, Phil Wood (publisher of the now-defunct newsleter Diamond Duds) and others, including myself, have regarding the existence of these tagged retail exemplars.

I can give two obvious reasons why I believe they do:

1) Mark Weimerskirch's Reggie Jackson A's jersey that I incorrectly autrhenticated back in the early/mid 1990s. Based on the knowledge that I had at that time, I believed it to be the real deal. Keep in mind, however, that the 1993-95 period when this error by me was made did not have ready Internet access to match fonts, logos or other aspects of a jersey. These aspects of visual confirmation are now the norm for examinations MEARS does for items from these genres. I can state of having looked at at least one A's jersey in tandem with Troy and Dave in the last 2 years which had obvious flaws in the NOB font that Internet photo research revealed, but that I would not have been privy to back in the early '90s.
Tagged similarly to legitimate Oakland knits of the era, how could a jersey such as this have made it into circulation with proper and unaltered tagging UNLESS it was obtained through McAuliffe?

2)I do not have the article in my possession and would have to visit Iola to find it, but I recall an SCD article by Bill Dod of New Hampshire circa 1975-76 in which he detailed, the locations of supposed 1975 Red Sox home gamers of Fred Lynn. Broken down by state, the list totalled a dozen...this in an era where players rarely got more than 2 or 3 sets of jerseys. Common sense would tell you that a dozen jerseys of one player 30+ years ago, when game-used collecting was considered odd even by card collectors in this same hobby, and no team or league marketing of thesehad yet begun, wouldn't all be game-used.

As far as the issue of the blue bordered/non-bordered McAuliffe tags go, I would have to research that to comment specifically on that, and plan to do so over the next few days. My findings on this will appear in the March 15 Shirt Off My Back column.

Dave Miedema
MEARS"

as well, dave grob's follow-up:http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1236482212/McAuliffe+Tagging+Issue

"In response to Dave Miedemas board post and a series of e-mails I have received on this topic, below is the response I have sent. I have also ensured that both Dave Miedema and Troy have been provided with the various e-mails on this subject.

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(Name Ommitted)

Dave Miedema has posted this in part to our board:

"As far as the issue of the blue bordered/non-bordered McAuliffe tags go, I would have to research that to comment specifically on that, and plan to do so over the next few days. My findings on this will appear in the March 15 Shirt Off My Back column".

I have informed Dave that he is free to research and write, but this is the standard for the work done under the MEARS banner:

1. What is the basis for the opinion or theory?
2. How can the theory be tested and proven?
3. What are the anomalies or inconsistencies in the theory and how are they explained?

In addition to the questions above, he will need to consider and answer these questions as well:

1. If retail jerseys are without the blue boarder, is this exclusive to those and how do you know?
2. How large is the sample you are using and how do you know you are not double counting the same shirt(s). I just covered this in my Barry Larkin article.
3. Are the dozen Fred Lynn jerseys you mentioned with or without a blue boarder? This issue is not if McAuliffe (Stall & Dean) sold retail products, but rather if they can actually be identified as such.

At this time, while it may be the opinion of others in this hobby, including what may in fact be those within our own organization, MEARS as an organization is not prepared at this time to accept the theory outright and without qualifiers that non-blue bordered McAuliffe tagged jerseys (post 74-75) are exclusively retail offerings.

If Dave Miedema's or anyone elses research can answer the questions I have laid out, then MEARS as an organization will gladly reconsider our position and previous opinions offered, and should do so rightfully so.

v/r

Dave"
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really interesting stuff.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Mr. Mediema thanks for the post on MEARS. I am sorry you feel as though I put words in your mouth. The whole discussion has centered around the blue bordered tagging, and your comments that were posted to GUU by karamaxjoe, you state you take Lon's side on the issue.

Since the issue is the blue border tagging I took you siding with Lon on the issue to mean that you agreed with his position that the lack of blue border meant it was a retail.

If I am mistaken or misread your comments I am sorry; however what other conclusion would you have come to regarding the comments if you were on my side of the issue?

If you are siding with Lon and his stance is that lack of blue border means retail, then isn't that your stance as well? I look forward to the 15th when the MEARS article is posted and you can fully explain your position.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

In my opinion MEARS has set a hobby standard by evaluation the 75 fisk as an 8, futher proof exists in my opinion in the 80 A's coaches jersey lacking the blue trim. Until there is documented evidence of individuals being able to purchase directly I will have to go with the contention that it is a tag varation and nothing more. Word of mouth and theory are not proof are not fact are not evidence.

As far as the Brewers jersey's they switched manafactures so who is to say that the McAuliffes jerseys were not produced for the team and then the switch was made to wilson? At worst those jerseys can be called salesman samples. To label them retails based upon Lon Lewis in Mr. Mediema words "being gospel among most older collectors" is iresponsible.

This is a situation in which Mr.Lewis should have to PROVE his statment's and position it is not a situation where I should have to disprove his factless theory. A theory that lacks fact as it's basis is not something that should be taken as gospel.

Again Mr.Lewis may be the nicest man in the world, might have a great collection, might have tons wisdow about the hobby I don't know I have never had the chance to meet him. However I do know that just because you have experience that does not mean you are right.

Lon provide proof and I will eat my words and will personally try and find every collector that has a borderless post 1974 McAuliffe in their collection and help them try to get their money back from the auction house, seller etc.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

So Dave Mediema a MEARS columnist is going against MEARS as MEARS has graded many borderless blues with grades as high as A8. And he is bassing his stance on Lon's statemnts being gospel to older hobbyist and the the fact that there have been many Yaz, Reggie, Catfish etc floating around to allow him to determin this?

So here is my question for Mr Mediema.

Sir how do you not know that it was not the same Yaz, Tiant, Fisk, Reggie or Catfish that had just been passed thru the hobby circles?

Also how can you say that jerseys that are tagged correctly lettered correctly are retails when there is no proof of orders of retails?

In todays world if a jersey is tagged correctly, lettered correctly etc are they not refered to as pro cut or game issued? Why would that not be the case with these McAuliffe shirts and at worst that would merit the A5 rating would it not?

Finally if this is common knoweldge and that borderless blue are retails how do you account for the 80 A's Walls jersey a Coach, and also why has MEARS chosen to disregard common hobby knoweldge and grade borderless as unquestionable gamers Example the A8 1975 Carlton Fisk in REA?

Please inform. It is just funny to me to say that info that is 35 years old can't be located but info that goes to 1909 for H&B bats can be; and without hard evidence we are taking a hobby veterans recoletion as gospel?

Mr Mediema you yourself say you have never spoken to anyone who purcahsed directly, don't you find that odd? Also does anyone have the Diamond Duds or SCD articles on this topic? It would be interesting to see the sources for the articles.

[karamaxjoe]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

I emailed veteran collector Dave Mediema for his thoughts on this manner. Here's his reply:

I've seen the thread, and both parties have a point. Lon's statements are considered gospel with most older game-used collectors, and there seem to be enough mid-'70's Yaz, Lynn, Rice, Fisk and Tiant jerseys with wear that is either missing or simulated in the hobby to verify that point. Same goes for Oakland A's gamers from the same time frame...Reggie, Catfish, etc.
Such retail jerseys also exist for home 1975 Hank Aaron Brewers jerseys, however, those are easier to spot based on a sans-serif numeric font, whereas the real 1975 home gamers (Wilson) have serifed numerals.
Yet, as far as a written record from someone outside the hobby (as opposed to hobby writers printing what they believe is true in SCD, Diamond Duds, and the like), I know of no such record existing...nor have I ever spoken to someone who has actually bought a tagged retail jersey from McAuliffe.
Regardless, I'll go with Lon's views on this dispute. There seems to be enough tagged jerseys that are new or made to look used that the origin of the story likely is legitimate, but, due to the hobby's infancy in the 1970s, never was recorded directly by the hobby press of the day and has since been buried in the 30+ years since.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

According to Mr.Lewis ALL McAuliffe Produced Game Worn Jerseys from some point in 1974 to the time McAuliffe stopped making shirts in the 80ties had the blue border?

Who on the board thinks someone is going take the time to fake a coaches jersey? The 1980 Walls A's NO BLUE BORDER. Fact of the matter is Mr. Lewis has no proof to back his statements and their are numerous examples of non blue bordered jerseys of stars to commons that prove his theory wrong.

Mr. Lewis might have great knowledge on many subjects but he has no proof to back up his position on the borderless tagging issue and no experts in the field agree with him.

Flaco knowledge needs to be backed by fact, and the fact is Mr. Lewis has nothing concrete to back his statements all I have asked Mr.Lewis for from the outset is proof of his position and he has none.

[cohibasmoker]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

I have attached a scan of my Johnny Pesky jersey from 1975. Through the years, I have learned the only thing consistent with the hobby is it's inconsistency. With that said, and I am NOT taking sides in this discussion but I'd like to see;

1) A borderless McAuliffe tag on a RED SOX jersey;
2) worn by a common player; and,
2) worn during the same period we are discussing.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

[Moustache Gang]

Re: Somebody Faked a Game Used A's Coaches Jersey??? - Right!!!

Winning bid:US $338.99 No payments for 3 months - eBay



Returns:Seller accepts returns.
7 Days Money BackDescription Vintage 1980 Oakland A's game worn Jersey. A's stars that year were Rickey Henderson, Tony Armas, and Mike Norris. Billy Martin was the manager and Lee Walls was a coach. Here is Lee's jersey, polyester of the era and vibrant green. No letter of authenticity on this one, but the labels speak for themselves. It is a size 44, and has the 1980 label identification on the jersey. Payment expected within 7 days and shipped UPS within 3 days of receipt of payment. Checks must clear 7 days.
Select a picture

[flaco1801]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

i guess when you own a jersey that some knowledgable people feel is retail this becomes the norm... i know this, all the red sox jerseys i have seen in 30 years that had the blue border were surely used to the max...

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Karamaxjoe what damage? I guess the fact that Mr.Lewis feels this way and some reference in a " Diamond Duds news letter " which we

A. have no copy of &
B. we don't know the who the source of the original statement is.

I guess these things are enough information for it to be a fact that the lack of blue border means it is a retail?

Never mind the complete lack of order records for retails. The fact that no ads exist anywhere telling the public that they can get a custom made shirt. Or the fact that no one else can confirm Lon's statements, but people agree with Lon because he has a good rep?

Never mind the examples of stars and common shirts that are borderless everything from Fisk to a Tony Armas are known to exist. Finally nevermind the fact that Lon himself has no first hand knowledge of this taking place. Just his stance that it did happen and I need to accept it.

His proof is a Indians jersey in the Henderson guide tagged 1971 that he says is from 1987 and that his buddy bought shirts for a softball team from Stall and Dean?

Come on board are we all going to buy into this because Lon says so? No offense Lon but this is kind of like

If someone told you to jump off a bridge would you?

Don't follow blindly and believe in urban legend or he said she said, ask for proof.

I am not saying Lon is right or wrong I am saying Lon provide proof.

[karamaxjoe]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Finally karamaxjoe taking someones story at face value weather it be a player, dealer or authentication company because they have a good rep is an irresponsible when the individual or company has no proof to back up their statements. It is about as irresponsible as Mr. Lewis making the statement in the first place without fact's to back it up.

All I have asked for from the out set is for Proof of which none has to this point been provided. If Mr. Lewis can provide more than his opinion then I will gladly say I am wrong.

I suggest you do some research to prove Lon's statement is inaccurate. All I know is Lon's reputation is pretty good on this forum and that's all I was saying. Plus Lon wasn't the ONLY forum member making the same statement. Prove them wrong and you can be a hero. Otherwise the damage has been done.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

karamaxjoe it is not common knowledge as there are numerous advance Red Sox collectors with borderless jersey in their collection with great provenance. This is a theory that is unsubstantied by than Mr. Lewis and not shared by any other expert thus far. It is not a topic that has ever been adressed by MEARS and with so much speculation from Mr. Lewis and his stance that there are no records for these orders because this was word of mouth thing and not advertised by McAuliffe; I would love to see an industry standard and an article posted on MEARS website regarding this topic.

Finally karamaxjoe taking someones story at face value weather it be a player, dealer or authentication company because they have a good rep is an irresponsible when the individual or company has no proof to back up their statements. It is about as irresponsible as Mr. Lewis making the statement in the first place without fact's to back it up.

All I have asked for from the out set is for Proof of which none has to this point been provided. If Mr. Lewis can provide more than his opinion then I will gladly say I am wrong.

[karamaxjoe]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Wouldn't the fact that McAuliffe sold tagged jerseys to the public be common knowledge among Red Sox collectors? Don't we have one Red Sox collector that can corroborate Lon and ironmanfan's statements?

I've seen the frameless tags for years and wondered if they were trimmed or just a variation. How could the fact that these jerseys are not the real deal be known by so few. If I had to choose sides on this I'd go with Lon's story since he's gotta pretty good reputation.

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

1986&2004Bosox,

Please email me right away.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

I never said Kohl spent time behind bars, he got busted back in the 90ties for multiple things involved with sports business and disappeared from the scene for a while.

Greassel got busted for tax evasion but he marketed the items and profited from the ill gotten gains of bad items.

I am the Lynn seller.

I hate bad items most recent case in point 99 hoffman AS that gaynor just sold on ebay 1200.00 total fake AS patch was grey should of been white and I saw it to late called scott and emailed and he said he would fix it.

Hell I have uncovered more nice items than most. Just found a 56 jim ringo packers that was pounded and a very prominent board member is very happy with it.

If Mr. Lewis had proof about his statements then I would gladly except his position word of mouth is not enough for me. Evidence is needed