Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

I have never seen anyone offer any clear evidence that Rose corked his bats or, more importantly, used a corked bat in a game.

Granted, this evidence would be hard to find -- short of a Chris Sabo-like bat explosion -- but I doubt that Rose would have done the corking himself so at least one other person must have been involved.

Note: There is nothing wrong with using a corked bat in batting practice - as Sammy Sosa said he did.

I have seen two alleged corked bats in two auctions, but there was no independent confirmation that 1) the bats were corked; 2) the corking dated back to 1985/86; or 3) Rose actually used the bats in a game.

Tommy Gioiosa said that Rose used a corked bat, but I don't believe that he provided any details. Moreover, Gioiosa is a convicted felon and not the most reputable source.

Hmmmmmm.......stay tuned, I'm going to post some interesting stuff on this tomorrow.....but

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

(oops, got cut off)

but.......right now, it's night night

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

Good morning forum....

I want to start by saying I am probably one of the very few who has actually taken the time to read the entire Dowd report. The exhibits, the testimony of the subpoenas, etc. It was obvious what Pete Rose was involved in, what he tried to cover up, and why he plea bargained in the end.

That said, I am a believer that Pete Rose is a flawed man, like every single human being walking the face of the earth. Yes, he bet on baseball. Yes, he bet on the Reds. But he did not, ever, bet against them, or try to throw a game for financial profit. I also don't buy the arguments that he may have made decisions to keep a pitcher in too long, risking that players health, or used his whole staff in an attempt to win a game he bet on.....atc., just so he could win a bet.

Remember folks, when you bet on a major league game, you bet on the PITCHER. The line on the game is set by the starting pitchers. By the time the game is in it's late stages, changing pitchers is done out of necessity to keep your lead if you have one. In a lot of these games, the outcome may have already been determined. In a case where it was a close game, Pete's decision(s) on who to put in was of course going to be similar to any other game under the same circumstances. Use logic: As a manager, you are trying to win every single game. What possible reason would you have for making a choice that would be different from any regular untainted un-bet-on game?.....you still want to WIN IT, and as the manager of the team, you still need to make the move that best places your team in a position to do just that. The argument of over-using one particular pitcher just doen't hold water.

So then what was Pete all about?

He was a highly competitive baseball player. Maybe he wasn't the smartest guy in the world, worldly in other areas of life outside of baseball, but a baseball guy he is.

It is my opinion that Pete Rose felt he knew more about the game than anybody. Whether or not that is true, he definately knows a ton, and is one of the greatest players to have ever played. Why do I bring this up? Because it leads to the whole "mental aspect" of intent.

Did Pete Rose "intend" to do damage to baseball?


Not a chance. No way. Absolutely not.....he loves the game.


But as a flawed, highly competitive guy, who thinks he knows more about it than anything else, a guy who played it to the best of his abilities, and in doing so earned his spot on top of the all-time hit platform, he felt he could take some liberties, and use them to his advantage to do the things he was all about: being competitive.....gambling on games. Showing himself and everyone close to him that he knew what he was doing. Unfortunately, as nuch as one knows about the game, there is still a reason they play the games......because the outcome is never set in stone. Gamblers usually go all in the same direction, eventually. Broke. Anyone will common sense and understanding know it's the bookies and houses taking the "action" that make the money.

Again, back to the point. Pete, being the kind of guy he is, displayed his personality in many different ways. He played hard, all of the time. He won World Series on different teams. He climbed to the pinnacle of the all-time hits record of Ty Cobb. and in doing so, he, like other mortals, had their problems at times.

Tommy Gioiosa was living with Pete for a period of time, and running his bets. Tommy was like a surrogate son to Pete. Those of you who don't think Tommy didn't know everything about Pete....well, you are mistaken. Even after Pete and Tommy had a "falling out", Tommy still considered him a friend and protected what he knew for years. But, when he finally heard things Pete was saying in regards to him, and basically making Tommy realise that Pete was all about himself, and discretiting anyone around him for his own benefit, that's finally when Tommy Gioiosa finally started talking.

Everything he said was true. Pete bet on baseball. He bet on the Reds.

And he did cork his bats when he was slumping, and he used them in games.

Why do you think Pete used to sand off the paint on his black Mizuno's? To see the wear on the wood from use? Are you kidding??

He did that to see if he could see the starting signs of separation in the grain, a telling sign the bat may be about ready to explode on the field on the very next hit ball!

He probably experimented on different sized cork insertions, length, you name it. This guy was no dummy in his world. He was in control, and did things for a reason. He felt he was losing his "pop" pff the bat as he was getting older, and eventually approaching Ty Cobb's record. So he had played with a couple of guys who claimed that corking a bat would lighten it up, give him that bat speed back, and the ball would jump off the bat better. Pete, somewhere along the line bought it, and the rest is history.

to be cont.

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

(cont.)....


So some of you don't believe he corked his bats?

Consider this scenario.

Along comes a Lelands auction in 2005. Within a year of the time frame Pete had released his Book "My Prison Without Bars" where he admitted, finally and officially, that he did in fact bet on baseball. In this auction, there is a bat that claimed to be corked.....a Black, 1985 beautiful gamer with perfect game use aspects of Pete's. He also has signed and inscribed it, apparently hitting his second to last career home run (#159) with it. The bat was expected to go for around $4,000-$6,000.

It sold for over $103,000.

Why?

How could that be?

I was one of the bidders.....I wanted that bat badly. I spulled out of the bidding when it hit $20,000 as I just couldn't see paying that kind of money for it above that. As it climbed throught the night, eventually reaching $50,000, I was left breathless and scratching my head.

Before going to sleep at around midnight, the bat was at $86,000. It was the craziest auction item I has ever seen in all my days of being in the hobby.

The next morning, I called Lelands to ask who won it. Of course, they have privacy laws that dictate they can't divulge that info. I eventually learned, by a press release the very next day, that an off-shore Casino won the bat. They publicly announced that they were going to hold a charity event, and cut the bat in two pieces to show everyone, live, if it truely was corked.

But a funny thing happened on the way to this revelation. The "event" never happened. There were rumors that this offshore company had "gone out of business". They have not, they are still in business. I have tried on several occasions to contact the Casino in an attempt to ask what happened to this bat, and what their intentions were in regards to it. No luck.....until one day, I did actually get a guy on the phone explaining to me I would have to email management to get a response. I did, three separate times....no response.

Have any of you wondered why a bat like this would go for over $100,000? Babe Ruth bats can be obtained for less.....true gamers from the GOD of baseball himself......and a supposed corked Rose gamer goes for over $100,000???

Well, I have a theory. Do you guys raise an eyebrow over the fact that an offshore Casino won this bat? Do you think that there may be a possibility that Pete Rose, himself, was the winner of this bat to get it off the market, in his plight to possibly one day get himself into the Hall of Fame? Remember, Bud "The Geek" Selig had just completed meetings with Pete, and the topic was possible reinstatement if he would just come clean. Pete did so, but by way of a book, and that once again set him back in Selig's eyes (because the timing was also horrendous....coming on the day before Eckersley and Molitor were announced to be the new Hall members).

I believe Pete Rose, who still gambles to this day (which is his legal right, I might add), was using this off-shore Casino to do his betting through, and when word came of the pending auction of this bat found out to be corked, Pete asked the Casino to bid on the bat to win it, and Pete would pay for it, thus getting it out of the public's hands. Unfortunately for Pete, some high spender really wanted this bat, so Pete, through the off-shore cloak bidder in his place, had to pay through the NOSE to get the bat back. How else do you explain an off-shore Casino even bothering to bid on it, let alone win it? How else do you explain that the bat has disappeared from the face of the earth?

Unfortunately for Pete, his personality has gotten in his own way again, and he is still stumbling through his plight to be reinstated. Add to that that Lelands sold off yet ANOTHER Black Mizuno, a cracked gamer with a piece missing, that was claimed to have a "cork-like substance" inside of it which was exposed at the end of the barrel. That one went for just over $5,000. Maybe it wasn't a real gamer, just game issued, but got into the hands of another fradulent opportunistic criminal who wanted to cash in on Pete's troubles (knowing the other bat went for over $100,000) so he drilled it our and stuffed it with......something?

In any case I just want you all to know, I believe Pete has suffered enough. He is human, and maybe has done some things that he would like to take back, including corking a few bats, but I don't believe he needs to be punished any longer for what he has done. He never intended to profit from the game by thowing games, or manipulating the games he bet on in any other way than to just outright win them. And in regards to the corking of his bats, studies have been done, and outside of a miniscule benefit of having the bat be a bit lighter (which may help your timing if you are in a slump.....allowing you a split fraction of a second longer to focus on hitting the ball), there are no real benefits hitting a ball further, or better by using a corked bat. What you gain in bat speed or timing, you lose in impact on the ball which won't travel as far due to lost velocity from the lighter weight of the bat.

So put Pete in the Hall of Fame. He belongs there. He was one of the greatest players to ever play the game. He has paid his dues, suffered through the humility of being bannished for life. What purpose does it serve to not give him his porper spot in Copperstown? He didn't take steroids to improve his performance.....his corked bats may have given him what?.....20 extra hits he may not have had without them? WHo really cares.....spitballers probably have 20 extra wins in their careers because of these types of incidental "cheatings" in baseball. They are instilled in the fabric of the game, they are incidentals.....not something to judge a whole career by.

Bud......you've been a freaking disgrace to the game for so long. Do something right for a change and, although making it clear Pete shouldn't be involved in baseball anymore (because his past transgressions were a direct reflection of his character flaws.....the same ones that should keep an alcoholic out of a bar), he does belong in the Hall for what he accomplished on the field.

Put him in, let him be, and let's close this chapter of baseball. The next chapter, the steroid one, will be consuming enough of baseball's energy for the forseeable future.

[tacprc]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

I believe that Pete sanded his black Mizuno bats because the varnish chipped and/or he wanted to be able to see the ball marks.

Pete sanded all of his black Mizuno bats -- several dozen in both 1985 and 1986. Very few, if any, have cork inserts.

[tacprc]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

Based on what I know about Pete, I don't believe that he would spend a penny out of his own pocket to buy one of his bats in an auction. He's shameless, hungry for cash, and besides there is nothing illegal about using a corked bat in batting practice.

I guess it's possible that a casino might buy an alleged corked bat as a favor to Pete, but $100K is a big favor. Plus, if the casino intended to give the bat to Pete or just destroy it, then why did it publicize the purchase instead of remaining anonymous and keeping quiet?

[Bobby Jenks]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

First of all, Rose signed an agreement to be banned to stop the investigation. John Dowd, who headed it, believes had he been given more time, he would have proven Rose bet against the Reds.

You're trying to hold water with a broken bucket. I can find no sources that even mention Dowd even hinting at Rose betting against his team. And if Rose bet against his own team do you not think the runners would talk about that.

[staindsox]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

The article was in the NY Post in early December of 2002. Whether he bet for or against his team is immaterial. A manager can misuse how he uses his players, particularly his bullpen, in order to cover bets. Would you use your best middle innings man for three innings against the Royals or Pirates with a five run lead? You might if you have a bet on it, especially if you bet you would win by 4 or more runs. That reliever then needs a few days to recover because you overused him. He's shot for the next series when the Dodgers or Yankees come to town, so you don't have your best middle innings guy for a tough series...this hurts the team. This would be far less an issue had Pete bet on a Tigers Twins game, a game in which he had absolutely no influence on the outcome. By betting on his own team, he was in a situation where he could mismanage a team because of bets. Even if his team won the game he bet on, the way he manages could hurt their overall record. This is the point.

[staindsox]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

I am not arguing about Rose as a player. That is a different issue. What I want to know, putting the issue of legal vs. illegal gambling aside, who here on the forum is comfortable with players, managers, and coaches betting on their games (if even they always bet to win)?

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

I believe that Pete sanded his black Mizuno bats because the varnish chipped and/or he wanted to be able to see the ball marks.

Pete sanded all of his black Mizuno bats -- several dozen in both 1985 and 1986. Very few, if any, have cork inserts.

That always came off to me as a laughable explanation....."he wanted to see the ball marks."

How better to see a ball mark than on a black laquer painted barrel of a bat? If you sand off the paint, the raw wood grain will show some of the ball mark, but not as much as the black finish would. You can see the stitching marks from the ball easily on the black finish.....the impression it leaves is unmistakable. There are much harder to see on raw wood.


In any case, getting back to the corked bats, I know of ONE for sure.

I own it.

I've met Pete Rose, and took a few pictures with him holding the bat. He acknowledged to Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn at the signing that it was a bat he gave to one of his old coaches , and was stated to them he was perplexed by the fact that old friends he had given game items to had, apparently over the years turned around and sold them off for money. This is kinda how it went down:

When I was at the show, I was fiddling with my camera with the bat leaning up against me in a clear bat tube, and there were a many people busstling around. All of a sudden, I hear a voice say "Now there's a nice bat". I look up, and no more than 10 feet from me is Pete Rose, standing in the crowd, taking pictures with fans. I was blown away....caught off guard. I told him "Yes, It's one of your '85 gamers." He said "I see that...Where did you get it? I told him I won it in a major sports auction. I said I wanted to get a few baseballs signed by him, but I brought the bat to see if he would be kind enough to take a picture or two with me, and the bat. Without hesitation he said "Sure, wait until the line dies down, then take it out of the tube and bring it up there to me"....pointing to where he's be sitting. He asked to see it. I handed it to him, and he read the inscription on it. He asked me how much I paid for it.....you know Pete, never shy when it comes to money. I told him "$7,000". He handed it back to me as he looked off in the distance like he was thinking "Damn.....and to think I just gave this away...."

A very weird moment for me.

Once I got up to the finally see him, he waved his hand as to say "Give me the bat..." I took it out, and he instantly stood up and took some practice swings with it, then turned to Tony Gwynn and Rod Carew and said what I mentioned earlier.

Rod shook his head as if too say "What a shame"....and Tony Gwynn blurted out "Well I would have done the same thing, Pete, because you're worth a LOT of money!" They all laughed while Pete just forced out a big perplexed grin.

The bat has his custom tape job, the proper staining from the pine tar, Pete's signature and inscription to his friend........and the part that I found most amazing....

When I won the bat in an auction, finally received it, took it out of the bat tube, the first thing I remember thinking while I was holding it was "Wow, Pete's bat feels light?" Then, it hit me. No way! Could this thing be corked? NAWWWW! I spun it around and looked at the end of the barrel under a light in my kitchen, and a chill ran down my spine. You can see the start of a perfect round 3/4" hole starting to separate through the paint on the barrel end of the bat where it had been plugged, and them painted over. I immediately called around a few x-ray places and finally found one that would x-ray the bat.

The whole office stopped, and stood around me as I pulled the bat out and explained to them why I was there. The head x-ray tech said, "Well, if it's corked, we'll know in a minute....". I'll never forget the look on his face as he walked out of the developing room with the x-ray in his hand. He was smirking at me, never taking his eyes off of me as he walked over to the light box, released the clamp at the top to hold the x-ray, and he shoved it in place, let go of the clamp, turned his back to me and walked away. I said out loud, "It's not corked?? I didn't think....OH MY GOD!"

I looked at the lit up x-ray on the lighted backgound.

It has a 6" long piece of cork, clearly visible in the barrel, filled in with about a 5" long wood plug. The bat is absolutely pounded with use. The paint on the end of the barrel had just started to seperate due to 20+ years of existence. We were all shocked to say the least. I actually was a bit saddened by this discovery. I told them I would not be doing anything with the bat until Pete had his day in being reinstated, as I wanted nothing to do with adding to his troubles. I liked him (he was a hell of a nice guy when I met him), he was a great ballplayer, and I felt he deserved to be in the Hall in light of his gambling errors as I didn't see they were meant to hurt the integrity of the game (even though they were wrong, and about as poor of judgement as he could have ever used.)

My last comment on the whole event, was something that I found very strange. While Pete was holding it, he looked at me and, while rubbing his finger lightly over the inscription, he said "Why don't you rub off all of this garbage and just leave my signature on it? That would be much nicer, don't you think?" I put my hands up and said "NO....it means a lot more to the provenance of the bat, and actually makes it worth more!" Again, he kind of looked perplexed and said "Really........O.K."

I wonder to this day if he wanted to disassociate the guy he gave the bat to, with the fact that he had given that bat. Did he know it was corked? Why would he suggest to remove that inscription? I still wonder....

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

I am not arguing about Rose as a player. That is a different issue. What I want to know, putting the issue of legal vs. illegal gambling aside, who here on the forum is comfortable with players, managers, and coaches betting on their games (if even they always bet to win)?

I am not comfortable with it.

But on a side note........do you actually believe it NEVER happens?

I am SURE there are a small handful of people in baseball who partake in the practice.......most definately through a friend or family relative. And, as with Pete, it's an honest bet, a gesture to try to win a little cash for something you feel strongly about.....in no way made to attack the integrity of the game......in no way causing another action to insure victory.

Pete Rose just took it to a whole new level, and being who he was, and what he had accomplished in the game......well, what can you say? He is living his own self-inflicted hell. I say forgive him already. Don't allow him back in the game in an active role, but reinstate him, with stipulations, so he can at least see his day for voting on induction to the Hall. He deserves that, IMO.

[tacprc]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

suicide squeeze wrote, "That always came off to me as a laughable explanation....."he wanted to see the ball marks." How better to see a ball mark than on a black laquer painted barrel of a bat? If you sand off the paint, the raw wood grain will show some of the ball mark, but not as much as the black finish would. You can see the stitching marks from the ball easily on the black finish.....the impression it leaves is unmistakable. There are much harder to see on raw wood."

Rose's black Mizuno bats were not merely stained black, they had a hard lacquer finish.

Again, I believe that Pete sanded his black Mizuno bats because the finish chipped and/or he wanted to be able to better see the ball marks.

Remember that Pete sanded all of his black Mizuno bats -- several dozen in both 1985 and 1986. Very few, if any, have cork inserts.

I am sure that Pete would explain why he sanded his bats if someone asked him. I will do so if I ever get the chance.

[frikativ54]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

That always came off to me as a laughable explanation....."he wanted to see the ball marks."

How better to see a ball mark than on a black laquer painted barrel of a bat? If you sand off the paint, the raw wood grain will show some of the ball mark, but not as much as the black finish would. You can see the stitching marks from the ball easily on the black finish.....the impression it leaves is unmistakable. There are much harder to see on raw wood.


In any case, getting back to the corked bats, I know of ONE for sure.

I own it.

I've met Pete Rose, and took a few pictures with him holding the bat. He acknowledged to Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn at the signing that it was a bat he gave to one of his old coaches , and was stated to them he was perplexed by the fact that old friends he had given game items to had, apparently over the years turned around and sold them off for money. This is kinda how it went down:

When I was at the show, I was fiddling with my camera with the bat leaning up against me in a clear bat tube, and there were a many people busstling around. All of a sudden, I hear a voice say "Now there's a nice bat". I look up, and no more than 10 feet from me is Pete Rose, standing in the crowd, taking pictures with fans. I was blown away....caught off guard. I told him "Yes, It's one of your '85 gamers." He said "I see that...Where did you get it? I told him I won it in a major sports auction. I said I wanted to get a few baseballs signed by him, but I brought the bat to see if he would be kind enough to take a picture or two with me, and the bat. Without hesitation he said "Sure, wait until the line dies down, then take it out of the tube and bring it up there to me"....pointing to where he's be sitting. He asked to see it. I handed it to him, and he read the inscription on it. He asked me how much I paid for it.....you know Pete, never shy when it comes to money. I told him "$7,000". He handed it back to me as he looked off in the distance like he was thinking "Damn.....and to think I just gave this away...."

A very weird moment for me.

Once I got up to the finally see him, he waved his hand as to say "Give me the bat..." I took it out, and he instantly stood up and took some practice swings with it, then turned to Tony Gwynn and Rod Carew and said what I mentioned earlier.

Rod shook his head as if too say "What a shame"....and Tony Gwynn blurted out "Well I would have done the same thing, Pete, because you're worth a LOT of money!" They all laughed while Pete just forced out a big perplexed grin.

The bat has his custom tape job, the proper staining from the pine tar, Pete's signature and inscription to his friend........and the part that I found most amazing....

When I won the bat in an auction, finally received it, took it out of the bat tube, the first thing I remember thinking while I was holding it was "Wow, Pete's bat feels light?" Then, it hit me. No way! Could this thing be corked? NAWWWW! I spun it around and looked at the end of the barrel under a light in my kitchen, and a chill ran down my spine. You can see the start of a perfect round 3/4" hole starting to separate through the paint on the barrel end of the bat where it had been plugged, and them painted over. I immediately called around a few x-ray places and finally found one that would x-ray the bat.

The whole office stopped, and stood around me as I pulled the bat out and explained to them why I was there. The head x-ray tech said, "Well, if it's corked, we'll know in a minute....". I'll never forget the look on his face as he walked out of the developing room with the x-ray in his hand. He was smirking at me, never taking his eyes off of me as he walked over to the light box, released the clamp at the top to hold the x-ray, and he shoved it in place, let go of the clamp, turned his back to me and walked away. I said out loud, "It's not corked?? I didn't think....OH MY GOD!"

I looked at the lit up x-ray on the lighted backgound.

It has a 6" long piece of cork, clearly visible in the barrel, filled in with about a 5" long wood plug. The bat is absolutely pounded with use. The paint on the end of the barrel had just started to seperate due to 20+ years of existence. We were all shocked to say the least. I actually was a bit saddened by this discovery. I told them I would not be doing anything with the bat until Pete had his day in being reinstated, as I wanted nothing to do with adding to his troubles. I liked him (he was a hell of a nice guy when I met him), he was a great ballplayer, and I felt he deserved to be in the Hall in light of his gambling errors as I didn't see they were meant to hurt the integrity of the game (even though they were wrong, and about as poor of judgement as he could have ever used.)

My last comment on the whole event, was something that I found very strange. While Pete was holding it, he looked at me and, while rubbing his finger lightly over the inscription, he said "Why don't you rub off all of this garbage and just leave my signature on it? That would be much nicer, don't you think?" I put my hands up and said "NO....it means a lot more to the provenance of the bat, and actually makes it worth more!" Again, he kind of looked perplexed and said "Really........O.K."

I wonder to this day if he wanted to disassociate the guy he gave the bat to, with the fact that he had given that bat. Did he know it was corked? Why would he suggest to remove that inscription? I still wonder....

Best story I've read in a while. Thanks for sharing.

[tacprc]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

suicide squeeze, why don't you ask Rose about the bat the next time you see him, and see what he has to say about it?

Aren't there many legitimate reasons why Rose might have such a bat (e.g., training, batting practice, rehab following an injury, just for fun)?

[33bird]

Re: Pete Rose possible reinstatement..

I don't buy the part about sanding the bat to see if the bat was starting to splint, etc. I had a Rose Mizuno-not shaved-and you could perfectly see the raising of wood and dead wood, etc. with the black on there. In a Joe Morgan book I have he said he and Pete would clean the barrel of their bats with rubbing alcohol after each game so they could see if they were hitting the ball on the good wood. I believe that's why he sanded his Mizunos-same reason. By shaving you wouldn't have to rub them clean after each game. Just my 2 cents. Also, I've never heard of betting a baseball game to win by 4 runs or more. In Vegas you can take a bet to win by 1.5 runs or you get +1.5 runs if you're the dog. Some of what you say makes sense, but when you say he bet his team to win by 4+ runs I don't think you know what you're talking about when it comes to gambling.